The Tim Ahlman Podcast
The Tim Ahlman Podcast is your go-to resource for inspiring conversations that equip leaders to thrive in every vocation, inside and outside the church. With three primary focuses, this podcast dives deep into:
Leadership: Learn from experts across diverse fields as we explore how their insights can shape and sustain a healthy culture in the local church and beyond. Over 60% of listeners expressed a desire for practical discussions on cultivating thriving environments—and that's exactly what these conversations will deliver.
Learn: Engage in deep theological discussions with scholars who illuminate how Christ is revealed on every page of Scripture. Together, we’ll bridge theology to the realities of a post-Christian America, ensuring practical application for today’s world. This segment aligns closely with the themes of the American Reformation Podcast and resonates with the 60% of you who crave more exploration in this area.
Live: Discover healthy habits that empower leaders in all vocations to become holistically healthy. As followers of Jesus, we’re called to lead not only with faith but also with physical, emotional, and spiritual well-being.
Join Tim Ahlman as we navigate leadership, learning, and living with purpose, so you can lead with strength, wisdom, and a Christ-centered vision.
The Tim Ahlman Podcast
“At Least They’re in a Better Place”—Why That Hurts More Than Helps
What happens when the rituals that once helped us grieve—viewings, funerals, community gatherings—fade into the background? In this deeply moving episode, Tim sits down with grief expert Julie Lynn Ashley to discuss the Western church’s growing discomfort with death, loss, and mourning.
Why are fewer Christians choosing funerals? Why do we avoid silence and tears? And what simple things can churches do today to care for grieving people with real love and presence?
Whether you’re a pastor, caregiver, or someone walking through loss, this conversation will reshape how you view grief—and the gospel hope that meets us in it.
Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast. It's a beautiful day to be alive. Pray. The joy of Jesus is with you as you get to meet a friend I've admired from afar, and now I get to meet her. Her name is Julie Lynn Ashley, and we're going to be talking about grief and bereavement, death and hope, which is ours in the crucified and risen and reigning Jesus. Let me tell you a little bit about Julie Lynn.
Speaker 1:Julie Lynn Ashley holds a master's of science in thanatology If you've not heard of that, that's the study of grief, death and bereavement. She's a member of the Association for Death Education and Counseling. She's a mom to adult sons, landon and Kyle, and wife to her best friend of over 30 years, doug, who is a lead pastor in East Texas. Julie Lynn has worked and volunteered in the hospice industry for years and there developed a God-given passion to support grieving people. She now has her own grief coaching ministry, both in person and online, where she works with people one-on-one who need support following death and loss. You can hit her up on her website at julielinashleycom. Julie Lynn, how are you doing, sister?
Speaker 2:Great to meet you. Thank you so much, tim, for having me today, and I appreciate all the work you put into producing this.
Speaker 1:Hey, no, it's fun, I love I got a lot to learn, especially on this topic. So we were talking, before we hit play, about Julie Lynn now being a standard name. I don't have, because I was thinking it was like maybe your maiden name or something like that. But no, you were God-given Julie Lynn. You're in East Texas and there's a lot of two-name people in East Texas. Tell that story, julie.
Speaker 2:Lynn. So it works. We kind of joked we moved here after being in ministry for almost 17 years in Denver. So big culture shift moving to Texas. But we've joked that my double name has found its people after all these years. And you got your Jim Bob, that's all kinds of folks here, and the stereotype is true they're very, very friendly and they are very, very willing to help you out. It's if you've heard of stereotypes of Texans, that way, it's true.
Speaker 1:Like to stop and take care of you if a car tire busts or something like that.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, one of my sons actually had car issues one morning on his way to work when he still lived here in Texas, and multiple people kept pulling over. How can I help? What can I do? And so it's been a very sweet place to live. In light of that, you don't take that for granted.
Speaker 1:Has that shaped the way that culture deals with grief? Is it different there than maybe in other places? Because I'll give my experience Talk about that.
Speaker 2:Absolutely One of the things that took me off guard culturally here when we first moved here is there. You'll see a funeral procession coming down the road and the entire street pulls over to make space for that funeral procession to come through, and it's just this general respect for a life that was lost, and so that has just been inspiring. It's challenged me in good ways, just culturally here, to see that respect for a life.
Speaker 1:Well, in the almost 20 years since I was a student pastor to now that I've been a part of death and grieving, loss, funerals, burial a lot of our rituals, traditions, especially in the urban and suburban centers of America, have changed. I mean, when I first became a pastor, it was very consistent that the funeral would take place. I have a wedding later on today. That's why I said wedding. The funeral would take place within a couple days of the passing couple, three days Today. A lot of times families wait maybe multiple months to make sure everybody can come, and some even longtime Christians in our church. They choose not to have any sort of funeral and that's not a large percentage but maybe 10%, and that's just like what's going on here. And then most are cremated today and we can get into that.
Speaker 1:I have a high respect for the body. That's not the choice I'm going to make and I would pray my family and friends. I think there's. We don't need to give God more work than he. You know that kind of thing. But there's respect If you chose cremation. Jesus brings ashes to life, to be sure, but to see a body in a casket and because I can't even think about it now because it's been so long. A visual. What is that called at Julie Lynn when?
Speaker 2:you're viewing a viewing, yeah, a viewing.
Speaker 1:There we go, gee whiz, a viewing, and that was normal. And then the closing of the casket as a pastor processes down with the body to the front of the church. The service begins, the pastor lead Now this is really old school. The service begins, the pastor leads Now this is really old school. The pastor leads the recessional out to the car and then the whole procession moves off immediately to the burial site. That what I just said. Right now.
Speaker 1:I have not done one of those since pre-COVID, and even then here at my church I've been here 12 years. Even then that was probably 10% it's. We'll do the burial somewhere else, or you got the ashes and the loved ones are keeping the ashes, and so, yeah, some of the rituals, culturally for us, have been lost, and I don't. You know, rituals are for relationship. Rituals are not just for ritual's sake, they're for relationship and appropriate seasons of grieving.
Speaker 1:But it feels like, especially here in the fast-paced, almost depersonalized, a narrowing of relationship rather than maybe connected to this wider community of grief and a season of grief, it seems like we've lost something, a season of grief. It seems like we've lost something, that maybe we've lost the sense of our finality and we, I think, could weep deeply. I think of Jesus right and his weeping at the grave site of his friend Lazarus and being with people Generally today. That's hard for us. So how do you develop a passion for helping people process death and grief? Tell a little bit more of your story, and thanks for just listening to me as I'm verbally processing all the things that have changed as it relates to grief and death.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So my journey with this started 10 years ago when my husband, doug, had a call to pastor a church here in Texas. So we were going to be moving to a new area. And when you move to a new area you're looking for how can I connect in my community, how can I make new friends? And back then I didn't have friends here. I had acquaintances, and so you start with what you have. And so an acquaintance said Julie Lynn, I would love if you would come and try out volunteering at the hospice where I work. And would love if you would come and try out volunteering at the hospice where I work. And I thought you know what it's a new day, new chapter, new state, try something new. And so I did. And just that invitation totally changed my life.
Speaker 2:Once I got into hospice work, my heart it's like God drew a line directly from my heart to people who have been through a death loss.
Speaker 2:So my heart was really drawn to the people, the ones that are left after a loss, the loneliness, the pain, and so as I watched all these hospice professionals specifically I was working with the chaplains, kind of as an intern at that time I thought I have got to learn more, and so that's what led me to go back to school.
Speaker 2:Later in life my kids were in high school at this point and try for a master's degree and God led me into this program that looks at death, grief and loss from a lot of different facets, with the end goal of helping people that have experienced death and loss. So after graduating, I graduated right in the middle of the pandemic, so my diploma was just mailed to my door. You know, so many graduations were canceled that year and so it was me and an envelope on my front porch with a bunch of big Texas mosquitoes, and that was my graduation. And from that point forward, a little bit later, I opened my own practice and now I work with grieving people here locally in my town, one-on-one, and then I work with people online all over the world and have never, never enjoyed, or just God's, given, so much joy in such a dark place, which is kind of it's. It's not what you would think, and it's only something God could do, and he's the one that's provided and directed this entire journey, so I'm grateful Well, we're Christians, right.
Speaker 1:And we know what is to come, that it's resurrection, life and this life is but a vapor right here today, gone tomorrow, and grief is part of the journey for all of us. So I just commend that. The Lord kind of put that call upon your life. We need more people who sit in that space consistently and are well-trained. You say that you looked at grief in your program from multiple angles. Can you give us an example of all the different angles that you were trying to look at grief?
Speaker 2:So it's looking at and we'll get into this later into the podcast as well but it's looking at grief not only for what someone has lost right now, but it's looking at what did they lose for the future with the person that they lost. And so that's just one of a lot of examples of the way that you're approaching a grieving person. So it's not just the surface level, it's their view of the world may have changed. Where are they wrestling with God? What relationships may have crumbled for them as a result of this loss? So you look at someone perhaps that was married for 20 or 30, 40 years and they had a whole bunch of couple friends that they went out with.
Speaker 2:Well, now, all of a sudden, as a single person, a widowed or widowed person, what happens to all those friends that you hung out with that were couples? Do you still go? Are you the fifth wheel, the seventh wheel, the ninth wheel, like how does that work? And so it's that curiosity to add that, as you approach a grieving person, there's so many layers to this that our Western culture has a hard time. I love the words you used. Are we willing to sit in this with someone?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what we need, but we don't. We've not been trained, I don't think in the West and just the everyday follower of Jesus even to sit with those who grieve and weep, and we don't know what to do or say, and so we largely stay away. Why do you think we in the West struggle to process grief well culturally?
Speaker 2:I think in the West we are trained to move, and move quick. We are multitaskers, we've got notifications dinging all day long from a lot of different sources and it's get it done, get it done fast. We also look at what's next. We're always planning for what's next and so in this culture there's not a lot of space.
Speaker 2:I love again the word you use, sitting, to sit with someone in what cannot be fixed. So, to give you an example, I was talking with a widow and she was in the middle of Walmart and picking up orange juice Super simple task. Well, orange juice was one of her husband's favorite things, and she just completely broke down in the middle of the orange juice section at Walmart and you've got people staring at her. They don't know what to do or what to say and they're almost frozen. So you picture her there sobbing and they're frozen. Well, in an Eastern culture, open displays of mourning are actually welcome. If you break down in the city square, that's fine, it's normal, but it is not considered normal in the West, and so that puts grieving people who are already feeling lonely, feeling that much more isolated and why there's such a gap between what they need and kind of where Western culture is so that's just a thumbnail sketch of it.
Speaker 1:No, I think that's good. What are your thoughts regarding the hyper individualism here in the West? Self-made man, woman rather than the collective, finding my identity in the community rather than I think of. I think of the Apostle Paul's. You know what's the most quotable athletic text scripture? Right, I think it's Philippians.
Speaker 1:My son wrote Philippians 4.13, you know, and I was like son, do you know what that? Yeah, I do, daddy, I can do all things. I was like, all right, that's cool. Do you know the next verse from the Apostle Paul? No one knows, philippians 4.14, and yet it was kind of you. He says to the church in Philippi to sit with me in my suffering, to be with me, to comfort me in the midst of my suffering. So you see, this sense of self, sense of identity, which is healthy, and then this deep need to say, but I can't, there's no possible way I can do this alone. My identity is centered in Christ and in the church, in a body, in a community of people who walk this hard road, who pick up their cross together and follow after Jesus. So any thoughts about how hyper-individualism plays into how we process grief? Julie Lynn.
Speaker 2:Yes, we can find the sadness, the discouragement on our own pretty easily. That's pretty easy to find. What is harder to find is the encouragement, the way forward, and for that God made us for community, and that is the encouragement that comes into my life. Often God uses people for that, and so I think it's absolutely that way with grieving too. Is that it's in community, those little things that you do for a grieving person and vice versa. I know I've been the recipient of things that have been encouraging, that remind me that God sees me, and so I absolutely think community is a part of the grieving process for people.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's the power of the local church, right, julie Lynn? Yes, it's a group of people you're voluntarily gathering together. Let us Hebrews right not neglect getting together as some are in the habit of doing. You can't make it alone From the very beginning. It's not good that man should be alone. That old boy, he's not going to make it right. That's a marriage text that I use, and then it moves out from he and she to the kids into a community. You have to be tethered, you have to be grounded.
Speaker 1:There's a sense of self that a lot of people today in our culture. I think this is one of the greatest value adds for the necessity of a religious community, the local church, people on mission, to invite as many people as possible into community, because many people today loneliness is an epidemic. It is and is a church actually creating space for lonely people, grieving people, to find love and connection in the midst of through man. I'm preaching every single Sunday to dozens of widows and widowers in our community and they found their people there. So what should churches consider doing to help others grieve? What's working, what's not, in your estimation, julie Lynn?
Speaker 2:So there's a couple things to get real practical, because I love talking with anybody, but especially ministry leaders, about this topic. One of them is it's something really simple we've done and we're at a smaller church, and what I'm about to share with you does not necessarily need to be on ministry staff. It could be a small group leader that does this. But at our church, if you've seen the funeral programs that are given out, they usually have the date the person was born and the date the person died. There's also some key dates that you may find inside the program, like their wedding anniversary, those types of things. When we get those at our church, those dates after the funeral is over get entered into just a basic spreadsheet and once a month that spreadsheet gets pulled up and someone from staff will be intentionally reaching out on what we call the tender days. So I think about it this way like I've been married now for 30 years and I cannot imagine if my husband was gone, what it would be like to wake up on the day of my wedding anniversary and not have anybody say anything, and oftentimes what we find is the person's own extended family have forgotten, and so we as the church have tried to come in and try to just. It's a simple reach out. It may be just a card or something, but it reaches into a very dark, lonely place where that person might be. So that's just one practical idea.
Speaker 2:Another one to get real specific I have a friend, carrie Bartkus, that has a website called lovedoesthatorg, and if you type into her website Blue Christmas Service, she has some really great ideas on how to do a mini Blue Christmas service at your church, and we're in April now, so you've got lots of time to look at this before December. Ministry leaders need lots of lead time if you're going to try something new. But it gives people especially at the holidays that can be particularly tender, particularly hard a space in their church family to grieve the person that they've lost and thank God for that life. We've done this at our church. We've seen it at other churches in the community. But if you're looking for a solid resource on how do I even think about starting this, you can go to Carrie's website and look that up. That's lovedoesthatorg.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's so good. So Blue Christmas Service it's a Christmas service that recognizes grieving people specifically in the hope of the Emmanuel Jesus coming into the world. So I've not heard of that. This is the first, so I'm pumped man. Okay, say more about what that service looks like.
Speaker 2:Yes, so we did this at our church a number of years ago and so it's a hymn like O Come, o Come. Emmanuel echoes what you just said. We're going to read the names out loud of the people, so it's people will contact us ahead of time and say I would like the name of my loved one has lost relevancy, but it's still relevant to that grieving person. You can imagine the power of hearing your pastor say the name of the person that you lost. That's a gift to someone at a hard time at the holidays, when they're missing them, maybe even a little more. Another thing that we did at our service to connect people. It's like what you talked about related to community.
Speaker 2:I don't know as a kid if you ever did paper chains on Christmas trees.
Speaker 2:As kids we did that. We gave out strips of paper at this service and we asked for anybody in the room if you remember something about someone else's person that they lost, could you write that down and give that to that person. And so we watched widows walk out of that service with a fistful of these papers with memories of their loved one that they lost, that they were going to go home and put on their tree or somewhere in their house and it's again we're grieving and supporting each other together in community. So those are just kind of some small ideas. You basically customize it to your situation, your church, where you are. But these are just some kind of ideas to spark things, to get some conversations started about how do we intentionally lean into this instead of backing up, because a lot of times what we're intimidated by we back up from, and grieving people have a lot of that in their life already. So having the church lean in in intentional ways can be really powerful.
Speaker 1:I love it. Man. What's your perspective on Grief Share, the ministry that's kind of gaining some traction nationally and internationally Grief Share.
Speaker 2:I was basically an intern in for a couple years and so I got to watch it and I think it has a place in communities. It is very affordable. It's basically just the cost of the workbook, so it's less than $20. For people that are up against some financial challenges in grieving it's very accessible. There's grief groups all over the US. You just type in your zip code and one will pop up near you. It's extremely especially near the end very evangelistic, so that's something to keep in mind as you are talking with people about it.
Speaker 2:It's got some really practical things in it. So one of my favorite sessions is session five things in it. So one of my favorite sessions is session five. It's a 13 week series and session five talks very specifically with a grieving person about what do you do with their possessions. Do you keep them, do you toss them, what do you do? And it's approached in a very sensitive, kind way, I will say. Having been part of it, I watched a couple come in once that had lost a child and they never came back. They came one time and never came back. So there may be more specific. I've got some more specific ones later in the show to give you that are very specific to parents that have lost a child because they may not fit as well in a generalized grief group. That's so good.
Speaker 1:Let's talk to caregivers. What are the top three positions or postures of the heart that should shape every Christian caregiver? And I'm thinking you know whether it's a Stephen minister we've got a spiritual care team. They're doing prayer and care and sitting with grieving people and they're just everyday followers of Jesus. Our team here it's a larger church, so it's like 30. Some people who are consistently in formation to sit with come alongside those that are on the way to see Jesus and those that are coming alongside, family members that are coming alongside. So what are, yeah, those postures of the heart that should shape just everyday Christian caregiver?
Speaker 2:Yes, I love this, that you asked this question First answer right off the top would be humility, and it's a humility that says I am not going to project that I fully understood the relationship you had with this person. So for you to say to someone, gosh, you must miss your mom, that must be the worst thing that's ever. Well, you don't know what the relationship was between that person and their mom. So it's approaching with a humility that you don't know. And right on the heels of that is going to be a curiosity, so to very respectfully ask questions. We watch in Jesus's interactions with people in the gospels and he asks so many questions. He's the God of the universe and he knows everything, and yet he meets people by asking questions. And so humility, and then a curiosity, I think is key in working with grieving people.
Speaker 1:You said two questions. Can you, did you, do you have those specific questions that you like to use in your tools, in your tool belt, to ask when? Yeah, yeah, that you just mentioned regarding humility and curiosity, do you know some of those best asked questions to sit with people with that posture?
Speaker 2:that I tell almost any client that I'm working with is I will look at them and say I will never fully understand the depth of what you've lost, but I'm going to try.
Speaker 2:And so if you approach with that mindset of I'm going to try, but I'm not going to come in as if I'm all knowing, because the only person that's all knowing is God himself and so there's a humility, there is a curiosity and then, following that is what I call, this circles back to humility again, but it's a deciphering. So it is in layman's terms read the room, look at things in context and again, if you're approaching with a humility and a curiosity, that deciphering should be right there with it that you're going to really watch the surroundings, context and read the room. Um, for, for what you're about to say, there's been times I'm working with clients and I may have something that I've prepared for them before we meet, and in the context, when I read the room, I'm like the Holy Spirit prompts me. It's like nope, not right now. You need to save that, put it away and just be in this, like you said, be in this with them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, that's, our presence is the greatest gift.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And having been in many rooms, silence is golden. It is silence is golden it is.
Speaker 1:And waiting and kind of mirroring having someone who's obviously an outsider enter in and somewhat mirror the emotions of of the room yes and I mean there have been many times and you probably the same where the grief is so palpable and, like Jesus, who had a close relationship with Lazarus, I may not have that close of relationship with that person, you know. But if there's tears in that room over loss, I'm going to agree with that without emotion, and often I cry right along with the family because death is not good, this should not be, and so we, we sit in. We sit in that. Anything more to say about kind of mirroring the room, as you're talking about for people, that because some people's EQ skills or your emotional quotient, et cetera, we always have room to grow and our IQ may have outpaced our EQ, and so I think this is really helpful for us to model what mirroring looks like in the midst of grief. Julie Lynn.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely it's. I think your pacing when you're working with someone is important and, like you said, the mirroring. There is absolutely a place for silence. To repeat back what they've said. It's I think you're saying this to make sure that you're fully understanding what they're saying, and then to pause and let that silence sit. It can be very powerful. I know you, I would imagine, when you're speaking, it's it's you. You use silence and pauses intentionally at times when they're appropriate, and so it's. It's absolutely that way when you're sitting with someone that is grieving.
Speaker 2:Another thing when I was on the hospice team, I would go in and I would literally be waiting with the family. I was part of the psychosocial team that would wait with the family until the hearse got there. So it's me and the family and their deceased loved one, and as a stranger coming in on the hospice team, I mean, can you imagine? What do you even say? And what I would ask the family is what did she call you, what did you call her? And they would say it was Mimi, it was grandma, it was. It's just that. What is so personal and that's what you watch Jesus do with people it's what's personal, what's under the surface, a little bit, what is not preachy, what is not trite, what goes a little bit deeper.
Speaker 1:So I mean you've said some things that should be avoided for the caregiver, what else, anything else top of mind, that should be avoided?
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, I could talk on this for a long time, but I'll keep it brief for today.
Speaker 2:Anything that comes on the other side of these two words at least should not be said, because when you say the words, at least, whatever's going to come on the other side of that is going to minimize their loss, it's going to minimize their grief and it's ultimately, when you say things like that that are trite, or at least he's in a better place, it's actually to comfort yourself, it's not to comfort them, it's to get you out of a difficult situation that you feel uncomfortable in.
Speaker 2:And I believe what Jesus is asking us to do is to lean in and not try to fix, and to just to lean in and not try to fix, and to just again the humility, the curiosity and the deciphering and there's a patience that comes with that process not to rush it and not to say something quick and fast and preachy, but to humbly ask a question what Lord would meet the needs of this person right now? And for the Holy Spirit to reveal that question to you and for you to share that, rather than rattling off stories versus things that are. When you rattle those things off, it's because you're nervous and you don't know what to say.
Speaker 1:I think in some of my favorite pastoral phrases centered in scripture, because people don't want trite, they don't want a sermon at all, and people are hardwired for hope. And so, at the right moment, discerning, when I'm thinking of my brother-in-law's dad who lost his wife, when this is one of the hardest grief stories and our in our family's story, when my brother-in-law was driving and and he got hit by a semi break and and went and and Turned into an oncoming SUV and his mom was there and she ended up dying in her son's arms. So, very difficult. My brother-in-law, tim, is a pastor down the road with me and then it was remarkable we went to the funeral and was with not only Herm, who lost his wife Sandy, but also the father of Sandy who, due to another illness, lost his daughter. And they were actually on the way to that funeral preparation when the accident happened.
Speaker 1:And so in one day, a father buried both of his daughters in a small Iowa farm town and uh, and being with Herm, profound faith, and just crying with him and and saying at the right time you know, a better day is coming. This isn't that day, but a better, but a better day is coming of resurrection, hope, you know, and and uh, outside of that, I mean, what do we got? This life is so futile and fragile and you know I've said before, like the only outside of the hope of Jesus, all we have is hedonism and nihilism. Right, it's pleasure to numb the pain, right, and then when that doesn't work, it's might as well be done with it. No, I mean, the Christian hope is so profound that Christ has been raised as the first fruits of faith for those that are found in him, and he's going to come to raise the dead.
Speaker 1:So now I sound like I'm preaching, right, but I mean, it's a certain, if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile, you're still in your sins. But in fact, 1 Corinthians 15, christ has been raised, the firstfruits of those who are found in faith. And even the way Jesus deals with death, you know, with the young girl. She's just sleeping and they laugh at him, right, they laugh at him, and Jesus just walks right past them and raises her up as a, as a foretaste, or a foreshadowing of what he's going to do for all who who are in in him, wrapped up in his loving embrace on that last day. So any take on the role of of hope in the midst of hope, in the midst of grief, julie.
Speaker 2:Lynn. Yes, a lot of times what you'll see, especially with grieving parents, is this idea. In the academic world, we call it meaning making. So it's this grappling for why, why did this happen, and what am I to do with these broken pieces, this side of heaven, these puzzle pieces that don't make sense, this side of heaven. And so it's things like when you see Mothers of Drunk Drivers, that was born out of this desire, this like what you're talking about with hope meaning making. I can't change it for me, but can I change it for somebody else? I can't change it for me, but can I change it for somebody else. And so you'll watch, especially grieving parents grapple with this and look for ways that they can incorporate what tragic event may have happened in order to help the world as a whole. And so that's where a lot of grieving people will spend time in the area of hope, because they can't change it for themselves, but they can change something for somebody else.
Speaker 1:That's really good. Would you talk about the difference in grief and I don't know if I put this on all the questions. I have so many questions. This is so fun the difference of grief from a widow or a widower to parents who lose a child and I don't care at what age, whether they're young, you know one day old. That wound is. One of the hardest of all of all wounds is the loss of a child. Would you help us? Would you help us find some meaning and hope and words of wisdom as we walk alongside grieving parents?
Speaker 2:Yes. First thing, for people who are walking with someone who has lost a child, it's a completely out of order life event. You're not supposed to bury your child ever. That's it's out of order. So one of the things I love to give people is some really practical resources especially, again, ministry leaders tools in our toolbox. What can we do to help when we feel completely helpless? These are not necessarily tools that you will use right out of the gate, so it's going to again that humility, curiosity and deciphering as to when the right time is to offer some of these resources, and deciphering as to when the right time is to offer some of these resources. One of the ones for people that have lost infants is a website called nofootprinttosmallcom. I learned about this type of ministry in my grad school days, and what this ministry does is they will make a weighted bear in the exact birth weight of a baby that was stillborn or was lost to SIDS, and they will mail that to that grieving mom or that grieving dad who has these aching arms that wanted to hold that baby, and it's just a tiny little bit of comfort, but it's very specific, and so that's something that I can refer my clients to that have lost a baby. Another one that is a great resource for your toolbox is the hopemommiesorg. They work on care packages that are given to moms in hospitals that have just had an infant loss. They have 5Ks that they do throughout the country to help raise funds for this and have local groups meeting. So again, it's that community that you're talking about, so grieving moms with other grieving moms. So that's another one for your tool belt toolbox moms. So that's another one for your tool belt tool toolbox. Another one that I love to give I just gave this one out recently is called themorningcom and it's spelled morning M O R N I N G, like good morning, and this one helps families, moms that have lost infants, stillbirth, sids, pregnancy loss and it's so specific this is why I love this one to recommend this one that, for parents that are so numb they can't even think about a funeral, this website has funeral templates specifically designed for infants. So when you can't even think about the idea of burying your baby, this website has things there that you can grab, resources that you can grab to help you through that time and then beyond. And then, finally, the last one that I recommend for people that have lost maybe a young adult child or an adult child is CompassionateFriendsorg. They are an organization similar to Grief Share, where you can type your zip code in and a group will pop up that's right in your geographic area, which gets us back to again grieving in community and to be with other parents that have lost a child.
Speaker 2:So I think there's some overlap in the question that you asked, like what's the difference between grieving parents or, you know, a widow or a widower? I think a commonality in all of that is they're not only grieving what they lost in the moment, but they're grieving what they lost for the future. So for a widow or a widower, it's like, well, I had planned to finish out my retirement with this person we had, we were going to travel, we had all these plans and now they're smashed. What do I do with that? And for a grieving parent, it's especially if they lost the baby in infancy or a stillbirth, or SIDS like you brought up for the rest of their life.
Speaker 2:On that child's birthday it's I see what a one-year-old is in my community and my child would have been that age and that pain goes on. Birthdays that were lost, weddings that won't happen, grandchildren that won't be. There's just, it's a ripple effect of these waves of loss that keep coming. I talked with a lady once who had lost a baby. His name was Patrick and she lost him 30 years ago, and the tears were right there in her eyes as if it had happened yesterday, and so that's the other thing that I think it's important for people to know about grief and loss is that it is not fixed in a year, it's not fixed in two years. This is a lifetime that they will grieve that person. God only made one of that person. They're not replaceable, and so it's just some again, some things to be thinking about as we humbly approach grieving people asking God what can I do?
Speaker 1:I'm emotional on this topic because, uh, you know, caregivers, pastors, I I have uh second hand, uh PTSD, that kind of accumulate on that. I haven't been diagnosed with PTSD or anything like that, but like the tears are right there, thinking about all of the unnatural death experiences I've been, I've been intimately connected to, right across this courtyard and looking in our worship space you know, a packed worship space for young people um, or suicide um or yeah different, um, or yeah different, I mean every accidents to you know the 60 year old couple who's grieving the loss of their uh, six year marriage, right, Uh, and they passed her in their nineties and so caring for that widow or widower, um, there's just, there's just a lot.
Speaker 1:Any words of care for cause your husband Doug, right, you do pastor, you pastor people. Any words of love and care and empathy for those that have kind of accumulated lots of lots of wounds over time, and comforting people that are that are hurting. Any words of kindness to us.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is a hard road that you walk. And what's so interesting, tim, is I'm sure you know, in your years of education, in my husband's years of education, he has an MDiv In all that education there was only. I asked him. I said, doug, what kind of education did you have on grief and grieving in seminary? And he said there was only part of one class in all the years that I had.
Speaker 2:And yet pastors like you are thrown on the front lines of it all the time. And so it's to encourage you to keep going. It's where are those spaces? This was something that really, in the hospice industry they, they emphasized is when you've been in a really intense situation, in the ER at first, on the scene at a car accident, whatever it is that pastors and leaders get put into, oftentimes with very little training, no-transcript, Um, and where is it that you are finding?
Speaker 2:Um a place to replenish yourself? Because you're you, as we know, in pastoral ministry, you get very little notice. Um, I've said, most of the time nobody calls the pastor after six o'clock for something good. So, um, we don't get very little notice and I think pastors have, in a lot of instances, very little um little education on it, but they're required to give it, and so that's it's a tough place to be, and so it's. Where are the places you're not only replenishing yourself, but where can you go and get education? Where can you go and get where you feel more equipped with what's out there? Where you feel more equipped with what's out there, and that's part of why I'm a member of ADEC, association for Death Education and Counseling for ongoing education in what's new, what's happening in this field, just like any other field, it changes as time goes on, and so what are some places to equip yourself and get rest?
Speaker 1:Hey, I love that Beautiful words of wisdom. I would. I'm just going to double down on the need for rest. Take your Sabbath. I do coaching Sunday's, not your Sabbath man. Probably not Saturday either, because you're prepping for Sunday. So, whether it's Monday or Friday, those are the two kind of standard days. Shut it off and I'm talking to myself right now. But everything is I mean, but it's, everything is just right. In front of you, I would say Sabbath and sabbatical. Every seven years I get a sabbatical and I'm a month away from taking. I had one seven years ago and I'm going to be gone for 10, 10 days. I'm off, I have a off. What's the language? I've been coached on this.
Speaker 1:I have to kind of detox to off ramp. There we go. I got to off ramp into my sabbatical and then I have rhythms that I'm going to be setting up for soul care. During that time, Obviously, I'm going to be with family and on some trips and I'm also doing some fun things like writing for fun. You know I got some fiction works to keep my mind going, but it's going to go like that.
Speaker 1:But if you're a congregational leader and you don't have a rhythm of giving your pastor a sabbatical every seven years, really really consider doing that. And I can't wait for what comes in the other side how excited I am to enter back in and see how everything went. I'm actually I'm shutting off my phone access to only a very few people and I am getting rid of the ability to look at email. Um, and I'm so excited about that right Cause email is so reactive. You get all the and, being who I am, I get. Do I really want to open that email right now? What's on the other side of that right so just getting to shut that off? I'm so excited about that. Any take on Sabbath and sabbatical and pastor's rhythms? Julie Lynn.
Speaker 2:Yes, we're big believers in that. We took a sabbatical at the beginning of 2023 for three months and absolutely loved it. We are so grateful to our denomination and our church for the gift of that time and you're 100% right. We came back fired up to get back in because we had had that rest. Additionally, I am the only person in our church that when Doug has had to do a seven-day run because there's been a funeral, an emergency or whatever, I'm the one standing there going where's my day back? You just worked seven, where's it coming back?
Speaker 2:And so and he knows it's for not only the good of our marriage, it's for the good of the church there's ripple effects to when you take a sabbatical and take intentional rest, and so we're big believers in that here, and I see that as an important role in what I do is I'm like okay, where am I getting? And now he knows, after all these years in ministry, now he knows he's like the day's coming back. I'm taking Monday off. I'm taking like he knows, and what I want for him in that day is to do things that I know he loves to read books for fun, to watch a movie, he loves to go to the gym. That's what I want for him, because I know those are things that fill him back up.
Speaker 1:There you go, so a couple closing questions. You're awesome. I could talk to you for a long period of time. What's the role? I started off the podcast with the role of rituals and kind of the evolution of rituals in our culture. Would you speak to the role of rituals, seasons of grief, funerals to help Christian communities grieve collectively?
Speaker 2:well, yes, I think it connects with what you and I were talking about related to community. So one thing that our community here in East Texas does to collectively as a ritual, a hospice nearby does what they call love lights at Christmas, and so, if you've ever seen, they call it luminaria. In some areas it's like this little brown paper bag and inside they have that little light at the bottom and they take these and they put them all over our little local arboretum in our town and they honor a life and they read the names Again. They read the names aloud, which is so powerful for someone. You see, of things like butterfly releases, balloon releases.
Speaker 2:There's all kinds of things that you can do in a grief ritual planting trees, whatever it is and that's something I talk about with my clients too, especially if they're going into year two, year three, and we'll talk about on this person's birthday. What are you going to do? And you make a plan. You may not carry it out because it may be too hard on that day, but it's making some plans to honor that life. I knew a widow where her husband's favorite cake was German chocolate cake and on his birthday every year she goes and gets German chocolate cake and may share it with some friends that knew him and they talk about him and share memories about him and that's powerful. Again, it's in community and it's giving people space to sit in what's not going to be fixed and that's hard for us in the West to do, because we want to fix it and move on and you can't fix this. Wow, because we want to fix it and move on and you can't fix this.
Speaker 1:Wow, You've given so many awesome resources and examples. I'm going to tell my team always probably has PTSD from me sending the email. Have we thought of this? There's always more on the grief journey, so I'm praying our team does maybe one or two. We do a lot of amazing things. Maybe one or two new things to care for people who are grieving in our community. You've been great. Let's close with this question what's your favorite Jesus story? Bible? Jesus story of Jesus processing loss, grief and death.
Speaker 2:That was an easy. When I got that question I was like I love that question John 20, jesus and Mary Magdalene and she's actually grieving him. He's died, he's come back to life and he's standing right in front of her and she doesn't recognize him. And, circling back to what we said, he asks questions Woman, why are you crying? Who is it that you're looking for? And to me, I get chills talking about it. I'm like that is so powerful. He could have said so many other things in that moment in her tears, but he asks questions, and so to me that's my favorite. It was easy. When you asked me that question. I'm like that's an easy one for me because it's just him and her in this moment and it's um this humility. He could have said so many things, but he asked her questions and leans into those tears. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And doesn't he say her name?
Speaker 2:Yes, mary.
Speaker 1:That's. That's so cool. Jesus is the best man and I'm recording this. Put a timestamp on it. I'm emotional. I'm writing our Good Friday and Easter message right now. This is probably coming out after that, but Holy Week is the best.
Speaker 1:These rituals from Palm Sunday to Monday, thursday to Good Friday. Everything's condensed, everything's intense, and you know the end of the story that Sunday's coming, but they didn't know, they couldn't, they couldn't see in the midst of their their plans were not God's plans. You're thinking too small, guys. I got, I got plans for the world, for the cosmos, and you're just thinking about Israel and I think of how, you know, we've got all these, all these plans and our plans are very, very small.
Speaker 1:And God, since we're connected to the greatest love story of all time, god's plans are grand, they're huge for you, for the world, that all would be saved and come to a knowledge of the risen one, jesus, who says our name, who claims us in the waters of baptism by name. He knows all of our days and he's orchestrated them all. So we don't have to be afraid of anything. Really, though, we get afraid because we're human, we're frail, we're fragile, but sin, death and the devil have been defeated. Our greatest enemy, death, has been defeated because Jesus lives, and so I'm praying for the everyday follower of Jesus just to become more adept, always more to learn, coming alongside those that are grieving, to weep and to mourn with those who weep and mourn, and to remember our loved ones and to look forward to that day when we see Jesus face to face and our loved ones face to face. You're a gift to the body of Christ, julie Lynn. If people want to connect with you, how can they do so?
Speaker 2:The easiest way would be over my website, which is julielynnashleycom.
Speaker 1:Hey, this is the Tim Mullen Podcast. It's a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. We're looking to learn on this podcast from people we didn't even talk about anything Lutheran related. I'm a Lutheran and I was detoxed from all the Lutheran conversations I get in as a member of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. I don't even know what part of the tribe of the body of Christ you and your husband are connected to. Julie Lynn, would you tell me that?
Speaker 2:You are hanging with the Presbyterians today.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, we agree on the resurrection of Jesus and the hope that is to come. So that was really, really fun. I had a, because I get into a lot of different podcasts, julie Lynn, on things in the church and in my denomination that are less fun, actually, than this conversation was today, even though we were talking about grief and loss. This was so delightful. You're a gift and please comment. Hopefully this podcast was helpful for you. Send it to a friend who's walking through grief, send it to caregivers. We are all wounded healers and the only balm for our wounds is Jesus, so let's share the love of Jesus as the body of Christ. It's a good day. Go make it a great day. Thanks so much, julie Lynn.
Speaker 2:Thank you.