The Tim Ahlman Podcast
The Tim Ahlman Podcast is your go-to resource for inspiring conversations that equip leaders to thrive in every vocation, inside and outside the church. With three primary focuses, this podcast dives deep into:
Leadership: Learn from experts across diverse fields as we explore how their insights can shape and sustain a healthy culture in the local church and beyond. Over 60% of listeners expressed a desire for practical discussions on cultivating thriving environments—and that's exactly what these conversations will deliver.
Learn: Engage in deep theological discussions with scholars who illuminate how Christ is revealed on every page of Scripture. Together, we’ll bridge theology to the realities of a post-Christian America, ensuring practical application for today’s world. This segment aligns closely with the themes of the American Reformation Podcast and resonates with the 60% of you who crave more exploration in this area.
Live: Discover healthy habits that empower leaders in all vocations to become holistically healthy. As followers of Jesus, we’re called to lead not only with faith but also with physical, emotional, and spiritual well-being.
Join Tim Ahlman as we navigate leadership, learning, and living with purpose, so you can lead with strength, wisdom, and a Christ-centered vision.
The Tim Ahlman Podcast
From Sunday to Monday: The Liturgy That Fails If It Stays in Church
Ever felt like your Sunday worship experience has nothing to do with your Monday morning reality? You're not alone. In this illuminating conversation with Dr. Jim Marriott, we dive deep into the profound yet often misunderstood connection between liturgy, discipleship, and mission in the Christian life.
Dr. Jim Marriott explores how liturgical practices can bridge the gap between Sunday worship and everyday discipleship, providing a framework for living the Christian life in all contexts. He challenges us to move beyond compartmentalized faith to an integrated understanding of how liturgy shapes our identity and mission.
• Liturgy forms Christians to live the Christian life in the world, connecting Sunday worship to Monday living
• The divine service is not just about one hour of worship but about shaping believers for their mission throughout the week
• Two axes of discipleship: passive righteousness (what God does for us) and active righteousness (how we live toward others)
• Three tiers of liturgical understanding: story, Word and Sacrament, and rites/ceremonies
• The Kyrie ("Lord have mercy") is not just penitential but an act of advocacy for those in need
• Christian worship should equip people for hospitality, generosity, and blessing others daily
• Every home can be a liturgical space where faith is formed and practiced
• Unity in liturgy doesn't require uniformity in practices
Pastors from two creative communities, Andy Littleton and Eric Cepin, discuss the...
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Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast. It's a beautiful day to be alive. Pray. The joy of Jesus is with you. Today.
Speaker 1:We're in the season of Lent as we're recording this and I get the privilege of sitting down with one of my favorite historians. Professor, pastor, liturgist as well as worship leader. This man is honestly one of the greatest organists in the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod. We don't judge by greatness. Greatness in the kingdom is about weak things, but nonetheless this man has been gifted by Jesus in beautiful ways. Today I get to hang out with my classmate from back 2004,. Reverend Dr, you weren't a reverend nor a doctor at this point, but in 2004, go Bulldogs. I got to listen to Reverend Dr Jim Marriott play in chapel for those years and I was like man. The Lord's going to do something special in this man's life and history is born that true by the Spirit's power.
Speaker 1:He serves as an assistant professor of music and department coordinator at Concordia University, texas. He previously occupied the Kreft Chair for Music Arts at Concordia Seminary in St Louis, where he served as the Director of Music Arts and Professor of Worship Courses. He held a holy undergraduate and graduate degrees in parish music from Concordia, nebraska, concordia, wisconsin. He earned his PhD then in liturgical studies from Garrett Evangelical Theological Seminary in Evanston, illinois, with an emphasis in liturgical enculturation. Okay, we're going to hang out there a little bit. He was ordained into the pastoral ministry through Concordia Seminary in St Louis and he remains an active pastor. He's just about ready to go preach a Lenten sermon later on this afternoon. He's a church musician, lecturer, composer and performer across the US. Jim and his awesome wife, christy, have been married for 19 years and are blessed with two kids. I got to meet your kids. They are awesome, joel and Kirsten. What a joy to be with you today, jim. How are you doing, brother?
Speaker 2:I'm doing great, Tim. It's always good to be with you and I appreciate you very much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love reading that bio man. The Lord has allowed you to learn a lot of things, and to whom much is given, much is required, and so of these learning opportunities. Well, let's dig into this question, though. What's the relationship? Just go right in the deep end, jim. What's the relationship between liturgy, discipleship?
Speaker 2:and mission. Let's start there. Yeah, it's a good question. A lot of my research and emphasis has been on trying to connect Sunday to Monday, right? You know and this I think it's a big problem for the church that we practice church as if it's one hour on Sunday and then, you know, we kind of go through the rest of life, you know, for the other hours in the week, and so it's very tricky to connect what we do on Sunday and have it have some meaning on Monday. So when I'm talking about the connection of liturgy and mission, I'm really trying to talk about how we form Christians to live the Christian life in the world. And I do think that the divine service or our worship practices are formational, like I think they do something and I think they're doing something on us in order to form us in particular ways to be the body of Christ in the world Monday through Saturday. So that's really what I'm up to in trying to help the church make those connections.
Speaker 1:Well, that seems to be a very Lutheran thing to do, right, jim? I mean, luther was remarkably concerned not just with though it's very important the preached word, the heard and believed word, but how that word was then shaping this is the origin of the small catechism, right how that preached word is shaping discipleship in the home. Say more about how the liturgy gets lived out in home, because I saw this with you. You took us through a pre-dinner prayer, some sort of a collect, I think, and it was just spectacular. Liturgy is in your home, jim Marriott, isn't that right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true, and that particular resource that we used that day was a book called Every Moment Holy.
Speaker 2:There's three volumes of them now and they're lovely prayers, lovely little liturgies for different moments, the idea that every moment would be holy and every moment covered in prayer. In those volumes there's even a liturgy or a prayer for changing diapers. So it's pretty fun to see how every moment can be deemed holy through the life of prayer, and really even more than just that. But you know, it's the idea that in the divine service we receive particular gifts and we hear the word of God preached, we receive the sacraments and we do so so that we might have forgiveness of sins and the promise of life and salvation. And that's what we I mean we're doing that on Sunday, but that doesn't stop on Sunday, like we live that life Monday through Saturday. And so you know what I'm interested in in my home whether I'm arguing with my teenagers or trying to be a faithful husband or you know all of these different things is how do I practice forgiveness, how do I bring life, how do I advocate for salvation in my family and my community and throughout the world?
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, shouldn't we be about training every father and mother to be a worship leader of sorts, a liturgist of sorts? I don't think? We often talk about it that way, and it sets up these kind of weird dichotomies like, oh, I could never do what Jim does, you know. It's like, nah, you could and should. We're just talking the things of God. Say more about how every home is a holy place, with those parents who have been given the ultimate responsibility of discipleship of their kids, establishing spiritual rhythms with their kids. Say more about that, jim.
Speaker 2:Exactly right. Well, and you brought up the small catechism and that's a great example or paradigm of this type of idea. And in the home we are forming people to live the Christian life and different people have different home structures and different home relationships. So this is inclusive. You know, it doesn't matter what your home situation looks like, it is a chance to live the Christian life.
Speaker 2:And even with the catechism, if you look at the purpose behind the catechism was to create a set of discipleship behaviors. Right, I mean Luther writes the catechism because people are acting immorally and they don't know the gospel at all. Right, you know the gospel. I mean Luther writes the catechism because people are acting immorally and they don't know the gospel at all. Right, you know the gospel is not producing the fruit of faith. And you know, in the lives of the people they're just not acting out, you know, so he writes the catechism, you know, so that households can learn the faith and then act it out. And we can talk more about that, how it works theologically.
Speaker 2:But what I'm really interested in is, like discipleship behavior, what it looks like to live out the Christian life. So a lot of us reduce Christianity to this kind of head knowledge type thing that if we have the right answers then we say the right things, we're good with God and we can kind of do whatever we want. And that's actually, you know, that confuses the idea of righteousness and the idea of living the sanctified life. Our Lutheran conf confuses the idea of righteousness and the idea of living the sanctified life. Our Lutheran confessions, the idea of new obedience, like the good works that we do are for the sake of our neighbors, so that we can make Christ known in the world. That's really important.
Speaker 2:That's what we want to do at home. So, like, the good things that we do at home are the things that extend from home to school, from home to work, from home, you know, to other places. So, yes, it's critical that families, would you know, know, live, study and embody the Christian life at home, and I think it's even not even more critical, but it's equally critical that at church on Sunday, that we're really focused on these behaviors so that we can model for families, when they, you know, live their family life, what it is to live out and be the people of God. So that's the connection of Sunday to Mondays, the very stuff that God has done for us, you know, forgiving us our sins, bringing us the promise of life and salvation. So these are the very things that we're doing for the sake of the world and you know, god uses us, by the power of the Holy Spirit, to make witness of that in faith.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't know how it could be any other way. I mean, this is just the way Jesus lived. He invited the disciples. Think about this. How weird would it have been if Jesus would have just said you know what guys, we're going to gather together one hour a week and I'm going to give an incredible. It's going to be an hour, not much longer, and I'm just going to like I'm going to say some things and we're going to do some stuff, but then you're just going to kind of go. No, they were with Jesus, like all the time.
Speaker 1:And so our discipleship is obviously Saturday and Sunday, all the way through the upcoming Saturday into Sunday. And where else would that start but in the home? And so I think you know this is a leadership podcast. We have so much room to grow and this is all grace, right, this isn't shame, but inviting parents to come and learn and practice not just the words but the way of Jesus, gentle and light yoke of Jesus, and how that shapes the way we care for our kids and help our kids grow and mature and kind of own their spiritual by the Spirit's power, own their spiritual journey so they become those that have the character of Christ that are comfortable speaking the words of Christ.
Speaker 1:If we miss on that and I would say and I'm painting it a little bit of a broad brush here I think in a Christian America we thought for a generation or two, maybe longer, but for a generation or two like we could get away. And maybe this is a point of unity, I think, within our tribe the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod, where we could get away with just entertaining people, making people feel comfortable in that hour, and generally the Christian ethos would be maintained in our homes. How far have we fallen from that being true in our culture? Any response there, jim?
Speaker 2:That's right. Well, I mean, you said a little bit earlier how could it be any other way? And this is the tragedy, tim, like there's a lot of churches that practice this other ways, right, and if you think about, you know, not just you know attractional churches that are entertaining, but the attractional churches that are posturing themselves where the church, the building, the location, is the only place to like participate in the Christian life. Yeah, you know. So now you have families that are set up that you know the whole point is to go to church instead of the whole point is to be the church, and I think that that disconnect is really problematic for our families.
Speaker 2:For any kind of relational structure that you know the solution you know many confirmation programs right now.
Speaker 2:For any kind of relational structure that you know the solution you know many confirmation programs right now or any kind of catechesis program, the idea is, well, we got to take them to church, we're going to go to the building, we've got to, you know, you know, go to the place where they'll be taught. Then we're learning in our homes. If we're relying on an hour on Sunday to be the place where we learn the Christian life, we're lost. There's no way we an hour on Sunday to be the place where we learn the Christian life we're lost. There's no way. We have too many other outside influences that are working on us for too many other hours, teaching us different behaviors. I spend more time watching college football than I do in church on Sunday. You know. So, like just from a sheer time standpoint. You know, if I'm not embodying those behaviors and taking seriously catechesis and discipleship Monday through Saturday, you know we can't rely on the church building to be the only place of formation.
Speaker 1:So Christian worship, you say, is discipleship. Christian worship could be attractional, christian worship could be building-based. Christian worship for us in our tribe could be the holy man doing holy things, rather than equipping holy people for love and good deeds in all of their vocational spaces. Anything more to say to what Christian worship could be, even in our Lutheran context.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's exactly right. And I've spent a lot of time writing about and thinking about this attractional model of ministry and most people kind of, you know, locate the attractional model of ministry with the megachurch who's doing modern worship. That is, you know, you know, kind of stereotypically entertaining people and I don't think that that's a very good practice. And I think that some of our more higher ritual, maybe liturgical, like all of these words don't mean much, but like these liturgical, you know, or confessional churches, a lot of them are doing entertainment just the same way and they don't mean to be doing it, but it's the exact same structure that you come and you get entertained and then you go and you know the formation, the equipping. We need to be very, very conscientious about how we're going through that process to make sure that we're forming people for the Christian life.
Speaker 1:Hey, good, good, let's get into what Bob Kolb and Chuck Aaron have written Two of our beloved professors at Concordia Seminary over the years. They say there are two axes to discipleship. Would you talk about that, Jim?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So there's a lot of people that use kind of this framework, the two kinds of righteousness right, you know. So, like you've got a passive righteousness and active righteousness, and this has significant liturgical ramifications, I think, because you start talking about, like, performing the faith, or you know these liturgical behaviors, or you know things like that, that we're talking about Christian formation and it can sound like works righteousness that we have to earn favor with God, and that's not it at all. All of the things that happen in the divine service are God first. You know, god is the one that is advocating for us. God is welcoming us into his kingdom. God is acting with generosity towards us, god is inspiring us praise and thanksgiving. God is forgiving sins, god is bringing life, god is bringing salvation. All of these things. We contribute nothing. So that's the passive righteousness axis and that connects to active righteousness, which is mediated between me and my neighbor. So then you know, if God has, in Christ, welcomed me into his kingdom, hospitality, then I in theable of the lost son.
Speaker 2:That was the lectionary reading, and Jesus tells that parable to the Pharisees and the scribes who are upset that Jesus is eating with tax collectors and sinners. And so I had to, you know, do some soul searching and I talked about this in the sermon that, like my family, loves to practice hospitality. We love to host dinner parties. We host ice cream parties, students at Concordia, texas, where I teach members from our church. We love it.
Speaker 2:It's great and it has been a long time since we have welcomed in the equivalent of the tax collector and the center to our table. We host a lot of scribes and we host a lot of Pharisees, but we do not host a lot of tax collectors and sinners. So Jesus is telling this parable, you know, against me, like if I am the least of these and Jesus has welcomed me into his kingdom, you know, then it's my, it's my duty in Christ to go forward and to seek the least of these. And so this is the idea of hospitality, you know, making sure you see everybody and make a place for everybody. There's one example, you know it's this type of thing.
Speaker 1:I love that, jim, so much. We're walking through the Gospel of Mark in Lent and we heard the story of why don't your disciples wash hands? This is Mark 9, I believe you know this is according to the customs, the traditions of the elders, and the historical background to that was there was Jewish high priest, you know, temple priest ceremonial cleansing. That took place. But over time I find this funny annotation as a worship leader and yourself too they developed a ritual for cops and kettles and even washing ceremonial baptizo is the word baptizo dining couches. I was like, when was the last time you took part in ceremonial dining couch washing? So nonetheless, over time that ritual had gotten in the way of what the ritual was for.
Speaker 1:It's always for a relationship, first with God and for others. So you see, in the divine liturgy, I love that we remember our identity as children of God. Oh, and as we move out into the world, we see others as children of God who may have forgotten that their primary identity. I could walk through the entire religion. We're confessing people, we're forgiving people, all because we've received it, we give it away. Anything more to say there?
Speaker 2:Jim, right, and what I find when I look at other churches and I talk to people about this is people are stuck in one or two of the like axes. You know, either it's all passive and we're not doing anything, and so, like there's no relationship between liturgy and mission, because liturgy is the only thing and so all it is is going to church. And then there's some that get lost in the social gospel aspect of it, that all it is is living for the sake of neighbor and they forget, you know, what God has done for us in Christ. It's the connection of the two of them that I think is really important. And this is the trajectory of the Augsburg Confession too, right, you know, like Article 4, justification by grace through faith.
Speaker 2:Article 5, the office of the ministry, the idea of word and sacrament ministry. Article 6, for new obedience, right. So there's a connection between this passive righteousness and active righteousness, and the connector is the church, right, you know, is the office of the ministry. So that's pretty cool, that you know God works this for us in Christ and that we go and then, in Christ's name, work this for the sake of the world, because the world needs to know Christ and to know the redemption that he has won for us.
Speaker 1:You talk about how you pray, that we broaden and sharpen our understanding of the liturgy. And then I had a question how is this connected to a form of performance? And let me just say something to kind of set that up a bit. I like how the liturgy restories us, Jim. It takes us up out of our small stories, our anxiety-filled or maybe pride-filled stories, up into God's grand love story. Not just for me but for the entire cosmos, shown in the person and work of Jesus, it tells a story of God's redemptive love. So the rituals that we walk through are all about relationship, and so that's in a sense for me and you can give me your perspective that's how it broadens the awe and wonder of the grand story I'm a part of.
Speaker 1:And then the practices. For me, as I'm interpreting, broadening and sharpening, the practices become laser focused. Here's this practice. But it's not to like worship the practice, it's to broaden our scope out to the one who gave us a glimpse and I'm thinking now even Paul's words. We see now through a mirror, dimly. Then we shall see face to face right, A glimpse, though imperfect, of God's redemptive love in that grand story. Anything more to say there, Jim?
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, so you know whether it's his story. I love that. That's a great, you know, model, great paradigm, the idea of identity formation, all of these things like being made new in Christ, who and what we are, that's exactly right. And you know the connection of that, being, you know, initiated into that story. This is what happens in baptism that God writes his story on us. God, you know, the story of our sin is no longer our story, it's now the story of God's salvation, and then we become reconciling agents in the world, like our job is to make that known.
Speaker 2:So I frame this for my students at the university in terms of ethics. It's pretty interesting with this, you know, two kinds of righteousness to talk about ethics right, because for God there is grace and mercy and forgiveness for the sinner and in the world there's accountability. Right, because for God there is grace and mercy and forgiveness for the sinner and in the world there's accountability. Right, and the Christian is to live as the body of Christ in the world, while others, you know, on this kind of horizontal, you know, active righteousness sphere, you know, are holding people accountable. We are extending forgiveness, you know, and radical forgiveness, because we're the ones that have received that forgiveness in Christ and so we forgive. It's interesting to play that out for my students.
Speaker 2:You know the murderer. You know, before God, the murderer who confesses sin, right, sin is forgiven. Sin is faithful Faith in Christ. The murderer, in the eyes of the world, is held accountable. There's accountability. The Christian's posture to the murderer is the posture of Christ, not the posture of the world. Right, you know, and the world can hold people accountable and the Christian forgives. I mean, that is like it's mind blowing in terms of formation. Right, like this is how we're supposed to live, you know, in Christ in the world, and I think it's really important and for all the leaders out there to really frame, you know, our ethics and our worldview, based on this Christian identity, this Christian story. What does it mean? Like, who is God and what is God doing? God is constantly delivering. God is constantly forgiving, God is constantly redeeming people that don't deserve it, that scorn him, and we're called to do the same.
Speaker 1:That's so good to counter. I hear a little two kingdom theology kind of coming through without using that language. But we release the person, the sinner, to the world and to good government. Praise be to God that sets and keeps good rules according to God's good law. But then my perspective toward that person that voted that way or thinks that thing or has that worldview, is love, not hate. That's right, and there's so many examples of this.
Speaker 1:I mean the early church gave us the pinnacle example to honor the emperor who's gonna be coming after you and only say Jesus is Lord, you have no other Lord but Jesus and you cannot say, well, it would be inappropriate, it'd be sin, and they knew where they were going, so they would handle the sword as it came. They couldn't, because the Holy Spirit lived in them, have another Lord when Jesus was the only Lord. I mean that is why the early church spread so much, because there were these practices which I love. That Jesus is Lord is like the first creed, documented creed, isn't that right? That's right. Very short creed but very powerful in its orientation to bring unity around a common confession both for the church and for the church in the world.
Speaker 1:You have three tiers. I think this is really helpful to piggyback on this Three tiers of practices First is the story, second is word and sacrament, and three are rites or rituals and ceremonies. And why is it helpful? If you get these tiers out of whack which I would say sometimes we get them mislabeled or the hierarchy gets inverted, you're going to miss in some way shape or form. So talk about the story, sacrament and ceremonies there, jim.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot of what's going on there is, you know, when we use the term liturgy, we have to be pretty clear what we mean, and there's a lot of authors that have done a lot of work on this that liturgy in the broad sense is a set of rituals and practices that forms you. Right, this is the idea of story that restories you, and we got all sorts of liturgies out in the world Again. There's a college football liturgy. There's a liturgy of Amazon and online shopping. There's a liturgy of all sorts. You know, like you could find all of the social media has, you know, an infinite number of liturgies to it that are forming you in particular ways.
Speaker 2:Doomscrolling is its own liturgy, right, you know like all of these things are working. So that's a big, broad view of liturgy. The narrow kind of definition of liturgy, you know, is what many of us might think of as the order of service, whether you find that in the hymnal or in the bulletin or on the screens or whatever, like whatever your church is following in terms of order of service. So I try to help people navigate both the broad and the narrow sense of liturgy with this type of tiered relationship so that with the stories, the top tier, and the story is narrated through word and sacrament ministry. Right, this is how the story is told. The story is told through the proclamation of the word, the story is told through the administration of the sacraments. That's what we're doing.
Speaker 2:And then that you know, word and sacrament ministry is performed through rites and ceremonies, and this then gets back to the idea of performance. Like you know, we are performing this. It is the performance of our faith and we're performing them through these various rituals, through these rites and ceremonies. So the rites and ceremonies themselves are not the liturgy in the broad sense, they are the way that the story is told, they're the method, the language, some of these behaviors. And so that, when it comes to liturgical unity not liturgical uniformity, but liturgical unity and the unity of the confession of faith that is found in the idea of story that we tell the same story together. And then when we do that, lutherans, we do that through word and sacrament ministry. We're doing taking that very seriously. And so that's our liturgical unity is telling that same story through the ways that God has promised to deliver those promises. And then the rites and ceremonies yeah, you're good. Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 1:No keep going, keep going.
Speaker 2:The rites and ceremonies then are the language, you know, kind of the inflection, the way the story is told, so that might vary from place to place and context to context you might use. You know different rituals, different ceremonies, different songs, different structures, but just tell them the same story. And that's where we need to really find liturgical unity, especially in our tribe. You know, and this comes up a lot, you know, when in our confessions we talk about, you know, not wanting to abandon the mass and we uphold the mass. Yep, so upholding the mass is this idea of holding liturgical unity where we're telling the same story through word and sacrament ministry, but we don't have to have uniformity of rights. You know our confessions say that. So this is why we can have liturgical unity without liturgical uniformity, and that becomes very important for us.
Speaker 1:Well, jim, I'm just making this, the light bulbs are going off, so excuse me, but isn't that what happened in the diverse telling of the Jesus story in the four gospels? Like I see diverse, diverse stories that are chosen. I mean, it's the feeding. The 5,000 is like the only story that's told in all four of the gospels. Could. Could Matthew been looking at John and being like, hey man, you know, you gotta, you gotta make sure you get this, but there's so many diverse stories and then John's the only one that gets the upper room discourse, for goodness sake, I mean, you know, of the washing of the feet and all the way to the high priestly prayer and prayer for unity. It the way to the high priestly prayer and prayer for unity. It's all these diverse angles and that's what actually gives more validity to the story is the same story is told with a number of different kind of sub stories, all pointing to the ultimate story of life, perfect life, death, burial and resurrection and eventual ascension of Jesus. Connect the gospel stories to our liturgies.
Speaker 2:So that's a great insight, tim, and to see that as enriching and I think that that is really, you know, that would be a gift that the church could receive is to see some of these diverse perspectives and diverse practices as enriching rather than threatening. Right, so that if we have a different view on something, different lens, different way of doing something, well, what can we learn from that and how can that enrich what we are doing? And that's a lot of what I've seen over the course of my career, you know, with different churches, with different worship practices, let's say, you know, I've come a long way, learning and growing from things that maybe I didn't understand or didn't like at one point, to having a very, you know, a little bit more nuanced, you know, way of saying, well, this is helpful or this isn't helpful. And I think we have to be able to make a critique, and a healthy critique, on things that are not helpful, on things that don't contribute to telling the right story through word and sacrament ministry, right? So?
Speaker 2:If yes, then that's where these tears come in Word and Sacrament ministry, right. So if and that's where these tears come in If the rites and ceremonies that we're using aren't telling that story and aren't, you know, working in the framework of Word and Sacrament ministry, then we have a problem. That's not good. But, as you know, if you can fit in that framework and use resources that do that, then it's easier to see these different resources as enriching rather than threatening or divisive.
Speaker 1:I would love to see now we're speaking a little bit more into the LCMS, so forgive me those that are outside, but this is pulling the curtain back a little bit I'd love to see a diverse group of worship leaders, pastors and commission ministers from across the Synod get together to find unity on an ordo or a general order of worship and not get too prescriptive but descriptive enough of the things that we would like to see in our services, from invocation to ascending and blessing and all the things that kind of go in between. I've walked through the liturgy many times in my podcast so I'm going to hesitate from doing that but basically a service of the word and a service of the table and some other things that kind of go around In the early church. A dear former colleague, dr Kent Burrison. He was highlighting in the early form those were the two orders of worship service of the word and the service of the table and then for us to say there's some diverse worship practices. I think one of the arguments that just kind of gets frustrating, I guess, is to say that my context, and not just my community's context, but my church context, is the exact same as a Midwestern rule or a suburban context. Here's what I've realized, having been in many different churches, grown up as a pastor's kid. Every church has its own rites and ceremonies. And for me to come in and say I'm coming from another context, here's that context rites and ceremonies. I really, really love this. We should do this.
Speaker 1:For me to come insert those rites and ceremonies into a place that already has their own is very unwise, right? I'll just give you three examples. We ring the bell to start every service seven times. It's the sign of Sabbath. Rest, right? Not every church has to have a bell. We have a bell. The bell's been here before me. It will be here after me. We love the bell. Like Christ Greenfield.
Speaker 1:We hold hands at the end of the service of the table. If you don't like holding hands, well sorry. We like to hold hands because it shows our unity to Christ, since forgiven our unity and mission as forgiven people out into the world, and then when the service ends, we close with God is good all the time, and it's not because it's cute, it's because it's true. And good seasons and bad seasons this is what we do. For me to like I've come in, those predate me. I bet those rites and ceremonies will be here long after I'm here.
Speaker 1:This is the Christ Greenfield way, and I could give you some other smaller rites and ceremonies. But every church has unique rhythms, right, unique ceremonies, and I just think we're very short-sighted when we don't recognize the unique context that this is all liturgical worship, for goodness sake. You know, we agree on the order of worship. It's maybe going to look a little nuanced in our context but, my goodness, there has been adaptation down through the years in terms of rites and ceremonies. Over 2,000 years, very diverse practices, but I would say they're mostly centered around the word, centered around the table. Anything more to add there, jim?
Speaker 2:No, that's right, Exactly right. Something I'm trying to help people realize is we don't have to agree on the rites and ceremonies right. We don't even have to agree that a particular rite or ceremony is helpful. And one of my colleagues, steve Zink, has a beautiful way of modeling this. He'll say I trust you to do what's right in your context, and there's some things that I've described to Steve that we do in our context. And you know he'll say I trust you that that works in your context.
Speaker 2:Now, I know him, he's my brother in Christ and we have good conversations, and so I know part of what he means by that is, I probably wouldn't do that in my context, but he doesn't say that. And he doesn't say, well, you're wrong for doing that in your context. He would say, well, you're a brother in Christ and I trust you to do that in your context. And so you know if ringing the bell seven times is meaningful for you guys or whatever you know, or wearing robes or not wearing robes, or you know organ or not organ, or you know any of these things that are diverse. Like you know, we've lost the ability to say. I shouldn't say we've lost. We need to practice saying to one another you're my brother or sister in Christ and I trust you to do what's right in your context.
Speaker 1:Amen In the talk I heard you give, and I don't remember who gave this quote. Maybe it was you. You can take it. If you've coded it three or four more times, then it's yours, jim. Anyway. Liturgical performance over time. Liturgical performance over time can become elevated above their proper function, seen not as the right which enacts the means, but rather as equal to the means itself. This leads to idolatry and to obscuring of the gospel. Say more there.
Speaker 2:Yes, and if you elevate the rites and ceremonies to be on par with the story, to say something like the only way to tell the story is through this set of rites and ceremonies, then you've you have elevated them to the place of ideology and whether it's repristination or some type of historicity but you hear people talk about this, like you know. Do you follow the Western mass or the Western? You know the historic liturgy? That's probably the way people say it. Do you the historic liturgy? That's probably the way people say it. Do you follow the historic liturgy?
Speaker 2:It's like, what do you mean by that? You know like in which time period? You know like there were all sorts of different practices and nothing that we have in our hymnal was original. You know, I mean like to early Christian worship, very, very, very little. The earliest we can see is this kind of, you know, fourfold pattern of gathering and reading the word and celebrating the Lord's Supper and then sending. Like you know, there was, you know, christian worship before the Sanctus. There was Christian worship before the Lord's Prayer was prayed in the Divine Service. There was Christian worship before the Kyrie. You know all of these things. So, like when you elevate the rites and ceremonies and the idea of a historic liturgy being the only way to tell the story. I think it's pretty close to idolatry and it's just not good liturgical studies, I mean like it's not authentic, it's not real.
Speaker 1:So you and I, having grown up in Lutheran liturgical worship, I'm sometimes shocked at how certain parts of our liturgy weren't always there and not too distant, were they not in our worship service. For instance, confession absolution as we know it today only has a few centuries. I mean it's not even connected to the penance and satisfaction for sins and connected to the Lord's Supper and preparation for the Lord's Supper, and private confession absolution, the corporate confession absolution, is a very modern evolution in our liturgy and so you can talk to that, jim, or any other kind of changes that have taken place in the historic liturgy.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, I won't. Even you know. Again, this is the second Steve Zank reference in one podcast, but you know he's doing some work on the placement of confession absolution and in some historic Lutheran rites confession absolution was placed after the sermon instead of at the beginning of the service. You know which tradition are you invoking, you know when you. You know based on where you want to place the confession absolution, right, okay, so like I don't think it helps us to argue about those things in a way that brings division in the body, I think that we can learn from one another. You know, why don't you use whatever in this service? Why don't you wear robes in the service? Why do you wear robes in the service? Why do you light candles? Why don't you light? You know, on and on and on.
Speaker 2:We can learn from one another and we might, you know, see strengths and weaknesses in our own practice by learning from, you know, other practices. Does that mean we should just try to change our practices? Not necessarily, like you talked about before, like there's, you know, practices that we should not change in churches? There's practices that you know, and I used to teach at Concordia Seminary the idea of being a ritual steward right. So pastors are ritual stewards. They steward the community's rituals. They're not ritual tyrants. And most you know not most, but many of our pastors well, I used to get really entertained because the worship class was a second year class at the seminary. So these uh no-transcript.
Speaker 1:And so he comes a few weeks out of the year and he had a very polite conversation with me about why, in our more modern confession and absolution, we didn't always allow people to verbally confess their sins, because there was maybe a silent. You know, the preacher sets up the malady, the law, it accuses us all and then, in the silence of our hearts, we get to pray and ask Jesus for forgiveness, which is a form of confession, I would argue. But he likes the public proclamation of I agree, I am a sinner, or poor, wretched, miserable sinner, etc. And so I was. Actually we were able to have a conversation oh, that's something we could probably add a call and response, a confession and a declaration of agreement around our confessing ourselves as sinners. So it was very polite. But he comes from very, very different contexts where he led worship in much different forms.
Speaker 1:Still, the guts of the liturgy were there. I think, Jim, you're a bridge builder, I pray you're a bridge builder for many, because you want to link and who can disagree with this? Our liturgical rites and ceremonies, the liturgy that tells the grand story, back to discipleship practices. So maybe, as we're coming down the homestretch here, would you people have heard me talk about it before, but would you give an understanding of your basic sense of the order but connect the order of worship with the discipleship lens? You've already started with invocation and identity equaling hospitality as the children of God. Would you just walk through four or five other elements of the liturgy and how they connect to daily discipleship?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's great, and so I do this in an article that I've written and I intentionally follow the hymnal pattern, let's say. But it can be adapted to other patterns and it creates a conversation point like what are we or are we not doing, or how do we locate these things? So one really interesting one is the idea of the Kyrie, the prayer Lord have mercy, which really is a prayer of advocacy. So it's interesting how that moment and then the intercessions, the prayer of the church, are praying for the world. You know it's the first Timothy idea that we pray for the world. That's why the church gathers is to pray for the world. The idea that we pray for the world, that's why the church gathers is to pray for the world.
Speaker 2:So you know, a lot of us, when we think of the idea of Lord have mercy, kyrie, eleison, lord have mercy, we're thinking of that penitentially. You know, lord have mercy on me, a sinner, and we see that in the New Testament. But most times when that refrain is offered or prayed in the New Testament it is for advocacy. Lord have mercy and heal me. Lord have mercy and cast out the demon. Lord have mercy and feed me. Lord have mercy. You know all of these things where there's direct advocacy, god working for the sake of humanity.
Speaker 2:So when we intercess or when we pray the Kyrie, we're actually advocating for those who are in need. This is our moment to advocate for the poor and the oppressed. This is our moment to advocate. And not only do we advocate with our words and our prayers, but we pray for the things that we are committed to doing. So we pray for the poor and we sure as heck better feed them. Right? You know like we should be. You know feeding the people that we're praying for. We should be providing for the people that we're praying for. We're the body of Christ we are. You know how God is working in the world. So you know, Kyrie, intercessions that's an interesting one.
Speaker 1:Dude. So I learn new things all the time. That's what's fascinating about this, and I probably learned this at some point, jim, but you know I forgot, I guess. But I love the Kyrie, but I think I've mostly thought about it in a Western, me centered way, and I bet even liturgists who are in Lord and I'm thinking Lord, have mercy upon me, no, lord, have mercy upon us. This is a collective hard cry and it's not just for the church, this is for the mission of Jesus that every person would recognize their desperate need not just for grace but for mercy, not getting what our sins deserve. So the Kyrie is a moment of mission. That's a boof.
Speaker 1:That's a mind blow Jim, I love that.
Speaker 2:Right Exactly, and when the you know, to Monday. Then if we could practice on Monday praying Lord have mercy at school. Lord have mercy at home. Lord have mercy in the grocery store, lord have mercy as we're driving past the red light with the person standing and begging Right. It reframes how we look at those things Like God is having mercy, god's advocating and he's using us to do so.
Speaker 1:Hey, do one or two more, dude. That was.
Speaker 2:that was worth the price of admission right there, so the idea of generosity is fun and the offertory, you know. So a lot of our churches I don't know how many churches still pass the plates after COVID. That was kind of a funny you know COVID consequence. Okay, so our church does not now, which is we save COVID conversations for another time.
Speaker 2:But the idea of generosity, you know, usually the offering moment happens after the sermon and it's kind of a weird liturgical placement because not always do we, you know, are we bringing the elements to the table at that point. But that's the historic practice is that the church would gather the bread and wine that would be used for the Lord's Supper in the offering. The offertory that was the offering is the bringing forward of bread and wine and other gifts you know that would be used for the sake of the poor and then that bread and wine would be what was used in the Eucharist to be the body and blood of Jesus for the community. So again, like the community brings the bread and wine, and so the body of Christ is bringing the bread and wine that will be the body and blood of Jesus for the community, so that the community can go forth and be the body of Christ in the world. I mean, it's just this really cool like reciprocal effect here that's happening.
Speaker 2:So the idea of generosity is bringing forth the gifts that we have for the kingdom so that we, as the body of Christ, might be the body of Christ in the world. You know, generosity is not about me giving whatever percent, you know, because I'm compelled to do so. This is what Paul's talking about being a cheerful giver, like God is at work in the world and you know we get to be part of that, like it's worth me, like I'd pay everything to be part of what God is doing in the world. Because you know, it's just a gift, it's all gifts and God has generously given us everything in Christ. And then in Christ we go and we live for the sake of the world. We empty ourselves of all of our possessions, of our materialism, of any of these things, because now does that mean that we go and sell everything we have and give to the poor? Not necessarily, but we use everything we have for the sake of the world and that is the calling. So there's a, you know, there's a generosity moment for you too.
Speaker 1:I love that. Hey, give us a closing understanding of the Aaronic benediction the Lord bless you and keep you, et cetera, where that fits in our liturgy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So this is, you know, the blessing and the presence of God resting on us after receiving the gifts of forgiveness, life and salvation, and it's that blessing, you know, like this is the Sunday to Monday connection, at least for me, that, as I have been blessed with that presence. Peace, reconciliation, you know all of these things coming together. Then I go and I am that ambassador of reconciliation and blessing to the world. In the South we have this, you know, the idea of bless your heart. You know, and sometimes it's said more sarcastically or snarkily than it is genuinely, but what if we, as Christians, were constantly blessing those around us? Well, bless you, bless this Lord. You know, let your presence, let your favor rest upon this. And that is like you know that the God who dwelt with the people of Israel and who dwells with us through his son Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit, working faith in us, is still dwelling in this world, you know, is still being made known in this world. That's a that's a pretty powerful thing, it's beautiful.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love it. This has been so much fun. Jim, how does all of this this is the podcast of the ULC and we want I mean our heart's desire, the Spirit's desire, jesus' desire is to get all of his kids back. You know, jesus came to seek and to save the lost, and so our gatherings are catalysts for the sake of God's mission. So how does just a very succinct kind of closing summary, jim? How does liturgy connect to God's grand mission to get all of his kids back?
Speaker 2:That's exactly right. I mean, like if liturgy is the means by which the story is told, right. If Word and Sacrament, ministry is the means by which the story is told, then we are all about that work, and that work is not just on Sunday at 11 o'clock. That work is 24-7, 365. So we are constantly proclaiming the gospel, we are constantly initiating and being reminded of our initiation into God's kingdom. We are constantly bringing forgiveness, life and salvation to the world. This is what we're doing, this is what it's about, and with that mindset, christ is made known. God has done everything for us in Christ. That's the passive righteousness, and God is using us actively to make himself known to the world as active righteousness. So we live for the sake of the world.
Speaker 2:My favorite here's I should have just given you this as the summary. My one of my favorite liturgical theologians says that liturgy is how the redeemed world is done Like. So liturgy is what the redeemed world looks like, and so, as we anticipate Christ's return and coming in glory, like liturgy is how the redeemed world is like, and so, as we anticipate Christ's return and coming in glory, like liturgy is how the redeeming world is done, and we're making Christ known as. We await His return in glory.
Speaker 1:How could it be any other way? Jim Marriott, I'm so grateful to call you a friend and partner in the gospel, praying for your work there at Concordia University, Texas, along young minds, leaders that you get to shape. I would love to have been one of your students and I frankly I feel like today. You took me to school, you took all of us to school.
Speaker 1:Professor Marriott, thank you for your deep work and I really believe, for those of us who are in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, this is a long conversation. Is it maybe sometimes a challenging conversation? Yes, to be sure, because rites and rituals really, really matter. They tell one consistent story. So my ultimate prayer would be more conversation for those who are within the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. In our unique context and work from places of commonality, we want the one true story to get told and we want it to be done well. We want it to be performed well, not just on Sunday, though that matters, but Monday through Saturday as well, all for the sake of Jesus bringing back. There's lots of lost sheep, man. There's lots of lost kids, lost coins, if you will, and we need a good shepherd and we need more and more sheep to hear the good shepherd's voice. That's what this is all about. Please like, subscribe, comment, share. Wherever it is you take this in.
Speaker 2:And if people want to connect with you and your work, jim, how can they do so? Yeah, so I'm a decent follow on social media, so follow me on Facebook. You know whether we're doing. You know doing life and you can see how this. You know liturgical, I pray. You see how this liturgical life gets lived out in ice cream and you know other acts of generosity. And look me up on the website of Concordia University. I'm also a pastor at Faith Lutheran in Georgetown and anytime you're in the Austin area we'd love to host you and get to know y'all.
Speaker 1:Man. This is the Tim Ullman podcast. It's a good day, it's a beautiful day, even in the midst of Lent. Lent is ramping up to the greatest week of all time, from Palm Sunday to Monday Thursday. Jesus did a lot actually between Palm Sunday and Monday Thursday, but Monday Thursday to Good Friday, to our glorious resurrection Sunday. And then, guess what, every Sunday is, jim, between that Easter Sunday, it's Easter baby, it's Easter. Christ is risen. He is risen indeed, hallelujah, hallelujah. Can I say hallelujah? It's like I'm saying it on. I'm not in liturgical tradition right now, but we'll be back next week with another episode of the Till Moment podcast. I'm grateful for you, jim. Thanks buddy, thanks brother.