The Tim Ahlman Podcast
The Tim Ahlman Podcast is your go-to resource for inspiring conversations that equip leaders to thrive in every vocation, inside and outside the church. With three primary focuses, this podcast dives deep into:
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The Tim Ahlman Podcast
When Culture Collides with Christ: Finding Freedom in Direct Faith
Have you ever wondered how different cultures approach spiritual truth?
Noks Shabalala shares her journey from ancestral worship in South Africa to Christian faith, offering fresh cultural perspectives on boldly communicating gospel truth with love rather than diplomatic politeness. Her multicultural background and direct communication style challenge listeners to prioritize mission over tradition and make the gospel accessible to everyone.
• South African culture values direct, straightforward communication compared to American diplomatic politeness
• Ancestral worship creates mediators between people and God, requiring sacrifices and rituals that keep people in spiritual bondage
• Jesus modeled bold truth-telling with love, not prioritizing human approval over God's mission
• Colonization damaged gospel reception when those introducing Jesus also perpetrated abuse
• Churches risk becoming gatekeepers rather than gateways when they hoard theological resources instead of sharing them widely
• The gospel must transcend cultural barriers while maintaining its transformative truth
• Heaven will contain people from every nation, tribe and tongue - not just those who match our cultural or theological profile
Through meaningful interviews and heartfelt conversations, Friar Time, hosted by Fr....
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Tailwind TalksTailwind Talks is a podcast for high-performing professionals who want to build...
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Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast. It's a beautiful day to be alive. I pray the joy of Jesus is your strength as you buckle up for a Jesus-filled, Holy Spirit-filled conversation today with my sister in Christ. Her name is Knox. Let me tell you a little bit about her. She worked in China as an English and a German teacher. How many languages do you speak, Max? Quite a few. Quite a few. Oh, I'm so envious of that. That's so good. She's worked in South Africa at a Lutheran boarding school as a campus manager during COVID time and then, pretty recently, she moved out with her husband, John, and her eight-month-now old son, John Loom III, JT. They came to CUI and she's the director of small groups and connections at Concordia University in Irvine, California. Knox, how are you doing, sister? What a joy to be with you today.
Speaker 2:I am so blessed. What a joy to be here. This is the day that the Lord has made, we will rejoice and be glad in it.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Amen. So it's a privilege. So I was so impressed with the passion that you spoke with when I first heard you at a gathering in Ann Arbor close to a year ago or so now. How have you developed that passion for bold declaration about Jesus and his gospel? Just share a little bit of your story there, Nox.
Speaker 2:I wish I could take credit for all of it, but I think maybe coming from Africa, where the culture is very direct, you know, people are straightforward that kind of helps. But also, I think, every time when I'm meant to speak of the things of the kingdom, it is no doubt that the Holy Spirit emboldens me to speak the truth, but with love and tenderness and consideration for those who are around me. From a life where I was not walking with Jesus right, and having been saved later in my life, it also gives me that burden, a beautiful burden, to boldly confess and to boldly speak the gospel of Christ, because it's his gospel. I'm just a mouthpiece to the people so that they too may come to the knowledge of Jesus, just like I did when there were bold missionaries in South Africa proclaiming the gospel to me, right? So what I receive I'm passing on, tim. That's the way it works.
Speaker 1:Definitely the trajectory of this whole thing from Christ to us, to the world. So you mentioned something that's interesting culturally around African and direct, more frank speech. Could you compare? Now you've been in the US for a while, can you compare the speech, the direct kind of frank speech, and even some of your general summaries of why we're not maybe in your estimation as direct here in the US?
Speaker 2:Well, first of all, I've gotten into quite a lot of trouble by just being being direct, because for me.
Speaker 3:I'm like, hey, it's, it's honest truth. You ask me how you look.
Speaker 2:I'm going to tell you how you look, americans are maybe more polite and more in tune with people's feelings and walking on eggshells and relationships. I think maybe the culture is very diplomatic here, where people would rather say what they think will please the person and preserve the relationship, as opposed to maybe sharing the truth and, have you know, ruffle on a few feathers but maybe give the person the opportunity to receive the truth and chew on it and have a conversation that stems out of that opportunity and which also becomes hard too sometimes when you share the gospel. And also maybe this is my observation, it may not me anything you know, I know what I know and you keep your thoughts to yourself and things like that. But back home, truly, you could be on a bus and someone will meet your team and be like hey, how many children do you have? Where do you work? What's your salary? Like, we get so personal way too quick that we don't let anything become the barrier for building intimate relationships with the people. If that answers the question.
Speaker 1:Well, it does, and I think we're wrestling as a church and a church body in the LCMS because now you're a part of our community with maybe a discomfort with confronting harder truths, and I actually have research to prove this using the Harrison behavioral assessment tool. It's a secular tool and I've talked about it on a lot of a lot of my podcasts, but the summary of the research is that we have welcomed passive, aggressive behavior and our pastors, unfortunately, because we like people and we like people to like us Right.
Speaker 1:That when harder truth comes. You know we don't necessarily handle it well. We could be overly to use your phrase diplomatic. We could be overly diplomatic and what that does for us culturally is we prioritize our own source of identity and protecting my identity with this group of people. It becomes an idol for us over speaking the truth with a spirit of love and receiving it, and growing up into Jesus, who is the head. I mean Jesus always spoke the truth with a spirit of love and receiving it. And growing up into Jesus, who is the head. I mean Jesus always spoke the truth in love. Jesus is way more concerned about how the father views him, the mission that the father has called him to the.
Speaker 1:Pharisees tendency, and I think in our, in our tribe, we have a pharisaical trend and tendency from time to time to prioritize things that are neither commanded nor forbidden to define our righteousness, our identity and I'm talking about worship here and doing worship the right way, yes, and then prioritizing maybe the relationship with the individual over the relationship that flows from God, because I think, while your culture may be slightly overly frank and you, there's a line and you can, you can definitely cross it here in America.
Speaker 1:I couldn't agree more. We're, and especially in the Christian church and in the LCMS specifically we go, we're overly, overly diplomatic and that hurts us in addressing what is obviously a struggle in the room. Any observations there?
Speaker 2:Knox as you're entering into our tribe. Yeah, I mean, even now, as I serve in ministry here, I mentor a lot of college students and they will come to my office for spiritual care, for mentorship and discipleship. And there'll be times when I go home and I call my husband. I'm like man. I had such a stern conversation with so-and-so and I don't know if they'll ever come back to my office.
Speaker 2:But I have learned that young people appreciate that more in ministry, just a direct conversation of saying, hey, like what, would it help you to gain the whole world while losing your soul in the process? Right, like, let's come back. What is the Lord saying about these things in His process? Right, like, let's come back. What is the Lord saying about these things in his word? Right, what are we being called? As opposed to just saying, oh, hey, I'm struggling with sin, but hey, where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more.
Speaker 2:No, that is a lie that the enemy has made us buy into so that we stay in bondage, tim, and we never actually accept or leave out the truth. Right, the gospel that is worthy of the calling that we have received. We don't get that opportunity because we are focused on ourselves. I always tell my students I'm like, hey, once you start looking within, your eyes are no longer on the cross, it's all you. Then the spirit of the Lord has no room there to shape and mold and sanctify you into the person that the Lord is calling you to become, so that he can use you as his vessel, because we're all his conduits. At the end of the day, we are here to do the work of the Lord. Of course, we leave and we are married to the glory of God, right, but it's all for the sake of the gospel team yes, and so, yeah, so that's what I've learned.
Speaker 2:I'm just like, hey, I'm just going to speak the truth, I'll be direct, hey, it's better to. I have found that it's better to ask for forgiveness right Than to withhold the truth but then go home with a heavy heart of saying man, I didn't tell that person the truth because I was trying to save face. Do you get what I'm saying? So it's better to tell the truth and let the spirit of the Lord move in the way that he intends and help you find favor in the people whom you are delivering the truth to. It's all about Jesus. It's all about Jesus. It's all about his gospel.
Speaker 2:There is truth that penetrates all hearts, that calls us out, calls us on.
Speaker 2:It's just the gospel.
Speaker 2:If we speak the gospel with humbleness and we are out of the way, right, without judgment.
Speaker 2:Because sometimes I should also say that, just because Africans are direct and straightforward, that just because Africans are direct and straightforward, sometimes we also err in sitting in the judgment seat and we are pointing fingers at our brothers and sisters, forgetting that the rest of the fingers are pointing back at us, right, it's easy for us to take the speck out of our brother's eye and forget our own speck too right. And so, with humbleness and gentleness, and putting yourself in the shoes of hey, how would I receive this gospel of Christ if it was spoken to me? Then it helps you to be able to deliver that with gentleness, because even Jesus, Jesus was so bold, but everything that he did, he did it with so much love. So bold, but everything that he did, he did it with so much love, a touch, an embrace, a looking into people and listening in a leaning forward team and not just sitting up there making decisions and pointing fingers and thinking he runs the world. We didn't learn that from Jesus. It's from our own sinfulness as sons of Adam right.
Speaker 1:Facts we need the second Adam Knox, and the height of his power was shown in a Roman Adam right. Facts we need the second Adam Knox and the height of his power was shown in a Roman cross right. And we're hanging in. So self-consciousness and selfishness. Is sin? A man or woman right turned in or on themselves? How am I going to be received right now? No, no, no. The call of Jesus is up and out, it's upward, it's toward the cross and it's living in the resurrection power which allows us to speak words that, yeah, that can be law, can be hard, but that draw people near that we pray for repentance and confession. Luther says that the Christian life is always a life of repenting.
Speaker 2:So when a?
Speaker 1:hard word. When I give a hard word or a hard word comes to me, I'm not surprised. I know I'm riddled with sin and I know I've been called up and out of that sin by the mercy and grace of God. So I'm praying, I'm right there with you and I'm a fellow fast talker, recovering. I'm still working, just like you, man, you get on this kind of role. But yeah, I think and as a parent I've come to know this and as your young jt, as he starts to grow like we, we don't. One of my favorite lines from uh, we don't allow things that we don't like to take place in our kids. Why would? Why would?
Speaker 1:you do that on your team with god's kids at cy why would I do that? Yeah, if there's inappropriate behavior in a room like let just let's just call it out right now in love, and I send a lot of those emails for me. I send corrective emails. This happened in this space, it's not necessarily just at you. There may have been a person or a group that was trying to bring division or whatever, but this sort of behavior is not welcomed here. Don't let your kids do things that make you dislike them. That's right.
Speaker 2:So this is going to be helpful.
Speaker 1:This is going to be helpful for you and the Lord. It's all the Lord's work. The Lord calls to repentance those whom he loves. Yeah, Right.
Speaker 3:The Lord disciplines those whom he loves, so anyhow, this is a great conversation.
Speaker 1:Let's get into your deeper story. That's right, and some of our guests may wonder why I didn't say your last name. It's because it's Shabalala. Am I saying that?
Speaker 2:right, you said it perfectly Shabalala, yeah, shabalala.
Speaker 1:And your full name.
Speaker 2:My full name is Nogukanya Shabalala. Shabalala is my maiden name and I'm married to a loom. So now I'm Nogukanya loom, but Shabalala is my maiden name and I'm married to a loom. So now I'm Nogukanya loom, but Shabalala means to disappear and Nogukanya means the one who carries light. So I'm glad I married into a loom, right Like loom loom.
Speaker 1:To illuminate.
Speaker 3:Yep, so that we get rid of that disappear, because we don't want the light to disappear. No, we don't. No, we don't.
Speaker 1:We wanted to we get rid of that. Disappear, because we don't want the light to disappear. No, we don't. No, we don't, we want it to illuminate the world in Jesus name. So tell us your background connected to ancestral worship. This is fascinating Ancestral worship in South Africa and I'd also love to hear, then, how that journey led you from China. You were in East St Louis for just a short time as well, and then to Concordia, irvine.
Speaker 1:But let's talk about ancestral worship. This is a topic that I have never dealt with on my podcast, so thanks for getting us behind the curtain of that cultural religious tendency.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah. So this is a culture that's actually prevalent in a lot of other cultures, tim, even in Asia, where we venerate the dead people. But the way maybe let me just build a picture right. So in Christianity we have got the Father, got the Son, who is the mediator between us and the Father, and then the Holy Spirit. But in the ancestral worship in South Africa we have God and we have the ancestors who are our mediator. Right, and that's where it kind of stops, right, and we believe that the people that have passed on, right, these ancestors, have the power. They have the power to bring good fortune and misfortune to the people.
Speaker 2:It's all about just playing by the rules. There's not much grace there. It's really a religion of just works. You do this so that God, the creator he's not necessarily Yahweh, the God that we have come to know who's the creator of all things and who has made people in his image, right, but we have a creator who we believe has made the earth and all the things that are in there, but who has power but is not as powerful as the ancestors. I think the paradigm there is a little toppled, where the ancestors now kind of seem to have more power than the God of our religion, because they can influence the way that he thinks and the way that he treats his people.
Speaker 2:Where else the line gets also just blurry, because the focus becomes so honed in on the ancestors and what they demand, right? So there's a lot of animal sacrifices, there's a lot of rituals that take place, tim, so that we figure out why this person is sick, why there's calamities in the family, and if we slaughter a cow, there's a belief that we appease them, right, so that they bring about good fortune in the family and things like that. So that's basically in a nutshell. I'm just speaking from experience, so, never having read any books that I read in where people are able to explain it sophisticatedly, but from our experience and what I grew up with at home, that has been the life. It's a life of fear, tim, because you are walking on eggshells. There is also a human mediator, because the ancestors are dead, so there's no way that we can hear from them. So there are people in our lives, in our community, who receive the gift to be seers, right, who can see in the underworld. So then they are the ones who speak to the ancestors on our behalf, right.
Speaker 2:Sometimes the ancestors will come to us. The belief is that they will come to us in dreams and all of that. But we need the overseer to interpret the dream, to inquire as to why we received the dream and what needs to happen thereof. So then there's always a blood sacrifice either cow or goat, right, they like candy, they like cool drinks, soda, cool drinks, you know. So those things are put there.
Speaker 2:Every homestead has a hut right, so it's a little house, right, they're designated to the ancestors and the rituals. So whatever has to happen, the ritual happens right there, at the corner of the heart, right when the incense are burnt, and we believe that the fragrance of the incense then appeases the ancestors. It's almost like the Old Testament, right, where the enemy uses something that was intended for good right To confuse us so that we become further and further away from salvation. And thanks be to God that the Spirit of the Lord came to me through the missionaries who were sharing the gospel and the shackles fell off my eyes and I could see and I could receive the truth and I could be saved. But my heart is still burdened for the many people, tim who, who are back home, the whole continent, actually, where there's churches, churches that are worshiping Jesus and the ancestors.
Speaker 2:Because it is so hard to do that separation? It's difficult because, firstly, remember these are the people that we know, they lived among us, so it is so easy for us to trust that what they say is true, as opposed to believing Jesus the foreign ancestor. Do you get what I'm saying? Even though some churches believe that Jesus himself is an ancestor, a special kind though, because we know him not to be dead. He is alive and living and he sits at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty. He is no ancestor at all. He's alive and living.
Speaker 2:But there's still a confusion there, as people are trying to dabble between the things that they know, because we want to hold on to the familiar right, because it's so easy to faith in the familiar than to faith in the unknown right. Faith is the. You believe in the unseen as though it is real. That's so hard. But for me to know oh hey, you know what I believe in my grandfather he lived in this homestead, he was alive and living and he supported this family oh, that's easy for me to do than to believe in the Jesus whom I have never seen right and to trust in the Jesus whom I have never seen right and to trust in the Jesus whom I have never seen.
Speaker 2:But also speaking of these things, tim, there is also another component that makes it so difficult for the many people in countries that were colonized right To embrace Yahweh, to embrace Jesus, the son of God, to embrace the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, because of the behavior of the people who came and introduced him.
Speaker 2:You know my sweet dad up to his passing he never accepted the gospel team because the people who introduced him to Jesus would also abuse him, would beat him up and all of. And I didn't know that because when I became a Christian he had never spoken about these things, he had disowned me. But it was later in the years, during the COVID times, and I know the COVID times were such a pain and a tragedy for many families and nations. But it allowed me an opportunity to sit with my dad and ask these questions and then I learned that no, no, no, no, it wasn't because he didn't want Jesus, but it is because his experience tied to the introduction of Jesus was through a man who would beat him up, not give him food, but then also force them to sit for devotion. Do you get what I'm saying? So then there's a distort, there's a disconnection right there to say well, how is this God, the God of love, whose mercy endures forever?
Speaker 3:How does he take it to the cross to die for me, for my sins, so that if and when I come to believe that?
Speaker 2:he is the Savior, the author and the finisher of my faith. How is he such love? When the people who are his vessel are full of hate and malice and are divisive and things like that right.
Speaker 3:We have taken the gospel of the Lord and have made it what it is not. We have made it what it is not. Jesus is love and he wants everybody to come to him, whether they are theologically informed and theologically sound or not. He wants all of us to be saved and I believe with my own heart that if I sit in heaven there will be no theology class. He will not be asking me whether I understood all the heresies. Do I know what is Adiaphora? What is adiaphora and all of those things?
Speaker 2:All he will want is to know whether I believe that Jesus is the son of God, who died for the sins of the world, the author and the finisher of our fate. It is by grace that we have been saved like nothing else, right? So that's one of the issues. Back at home, even though the gospel is prevailing and the churches are booming, there's still a distort and a confusion where the theology is not as sound and as pure as we have come to have it here in America. Because we are blessed Maybe not just America both the East and the West. You guys are blessed with seminaries, with Greek and Hebrew, with the languages to understand the origin of things. In other countries, people have no Bible written in their own language. Do you know what a gift it was for me to read the Word of God in my own language, even though I received it in English? Okay, to receive a Zulu Bible and read in my language what the Lord has to say about life, about me and about so many things that I wrestle with. What a gift, what a gift.
Speaker 2:And we are wasting time wasting time, if I may be so bold. We are wasting time trying to figure out what kind of organ do we need in the church, instead of maybe coming together as the brethren and and getting the word out there? The word need to be cast, the seed needs to go out out there. We need to plant it for the people of the lord to come to the knowledge of jesus. Jesus needs to be lifted up, just just as Moses lifted up that serpent in the wilderness and those who look to it were delivered from the venom of the snake. Like we need to be lifting Jesus up so that Jesus draws his people to himself, not to the denomination.
Speaker 2:It is well and good. Oh my gosh. Oh yes, of course. Course we can use denominations as a pathway to filter people into the kingdom of God. That is okay. But then, once we start using it as a hindrance to filtering people into the kingdom, then we have opened a gateway for the enemy to disrupt us so that the Lord doesn't get his will to come to pass through us, to disrupt us, so that the Lord doesn't get his will to come to pass through us, you're amazing.
Speaker 1:The Holy Spirit that rests upon you is extra ordinary. Praise be to God, and that is grounded in your story. And what are some of the? I just overwhelmed with the goodness of God, and listen to you share your story. What are some ways that you've seen are helpful? Obviously, a way of power, the way of power, the way of might, the way of shame. These are not the way of fear, these are not the ways of Jesus, nor the way of our God, whose primary disposition toward us is love. But how have you seen winsome ways in for those that are wrestling with ancestral worship? Because I think still today, while it may be more behind the scenes, it still is, you know, mediating through. I think we have direct access. I love that, that the veil has been torn, we now have direct access to the love of God in the person and work of.
Speaker 1:Jesus and now we have the Holy Spirit. But what are the helpful ways, the kind ways that you've experienced and are seeking to live out, for those who may be more prone to worship their ancestors rather than the Triune God their ancestors?
Speaker 2:rather than the Triune God, some of the ways that I've seen, because also I've come afar with being an evangelist in my family, if I may put it that way, where I've been sharing the gospel but the ties are so strong. But I believe that the Holy Spirit has the power to break these chains, to free people from the bondage and usher them into the kingdom of Christ. But patience and boldly proclaiming at all times, but also team, the greatest and the sad part is some people won't get to open the Bible. They read us right. So our behavior, the way we walk into these situations, the way I'm taking it out of the ancestral context now, but even here in the US, the way we interact with our neighbors that don't look like us, right, the way we interact with our neighbors that don't look like us right, the way that we interact with people of other denominations that don't profess the creeds that we profess, right, how are we a true representation of Christ? How do we allow the Holy Spirit to use us, even in our weakness, team, to use us to draw the people of Christ to Jesus? Right, so persistent, boldly professing. But also the thing that we do less, that we should do more, is praying behind the scenes, right, we don't pray as much. We plan. We are very programmatic. We put a lot of programs which are great, and and the Lord is able to use these programs to, to, to, to, to get to his people. And thanks be to God because he doesn't look at our weakness, right, and just sits there and toss his hands up in the. I'm like, what do I do with these humans? But he uses all of those things but maybe pray.
Speaker 2:We need to be a church that prays for its people. We need to be a church that prays for the salvation of the people, the church that prays for the gospel of the Lord to penetrate the hearts of men so that men can hear the word and come to the knowledge of Jesus. We need to pray instead of writing programs. We need to bring people into a community of prayer, a community of worship, a community that is embracing, a community that is not afraid. The enemy has planted a seed of fear that we are so afraid for anything that doesn't smell, that doesn't sound LCMS, that doesn't look LCMS, as if the kingdom of God is dependent upon those things. No, the kingdom of God is movable and shakable. It is not held by our theology and I'm saying this with so much sensitivity and so much love and so much grace but it's not dependent upon these things. It is alive and living. It's who it is. We are the people of the gospel. It's who we be. We just share the gospel. Share the gospel and stop focusing on these building blocks. Don't hear me wrong.
Speaker 2:Now I'm not saying obliterate the building blocks. All right, keep the building blocks, but do not focus on them, because they have derailed us for so long. Our churches are getting old and some of them are dying and some of them are shutting down. We are losing the buildings where we could be inviting people into. Okay, fine, jesus doesn't sit in the building. He is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient. Okay, we could gather here in my office and the Spirit of the Lord will just be as present here and the gospel will just be as alive and living and as sharper as the double-edged sword.
Speaker 2:Right, but no, let's not be afraid. Why are we so afraid? Because I'm talking to you, but also my heart is shaking. But why are we so afraid to lose the very thing that we believe is true? Right, because if you are one person who has the cure, why do you hoarder on the cure right? Everyone is dying around you. No, share the cure right. Share it If we believe that we have found the truth in the creeds and in the confessions and in the scriptures.
Speaker 2:Open the gates, wide open. Open up the gates. You know, to quote Frozen, have the people come so that people can find the truth. But if we're doing this, tim, if we're hiding the truth, no one gets it and by the time we realize it may be too late. And I hope that we don't get to the too late. I hope that the spirit of the Lord may cultivate our hearts and give us a burden that even when we are sleeping he comes and he keeps us awake, being burdened by the fear. The Lord did not give us the spirit of fear, right, but of power and a sound mind and of love. Okay, so that's yeah. Let me reel it in. Let me reel it in brother, come on in Chime, in Chime in.
Speaker 1:So I'll add that anytime we become wet, it seems like this is what Jesus is doing with the Pharisees. Why do your disciples not wash their hands? Don't you know that the good Jew washes their hands? And Jesus, obviously because he knows the heart which we don't always know, the heart of our brother or sister, jesus. Jesus knows the heart which we don't always know, the heart of our brother or sister, jesus knows the heart. He's concerned about our heart. You turn the traditions of men into the commandments of God. We turn rituals and the way we do it as a distinguisher that we're more righteous and for us, as Lutherans, more Lutheran or even the right type of Lutheran, and I don't know why we can't see this is the Pharisaical tendency. And to move out with, because Jesus says this is what defiles a man right, not what comes into him, but what comes out of him and he's concerned about a heart where there's envy, dissension, slandering, adultery.
Speaker 1:All of these things come out of the heart and Jesus is in the business of cleansing our hearts, which gives us great freedom. Like I've been, the shackles, the burden, the heaviness, the slavery of my sin has been nailed to the cross. With Jesus Christ, I no longer live, he lives within me. Slavery of my sin has been nailed to the cross with Jesus Christ. I no longer live, he lives within me. And so then I move out into the world looking at some of the rituals that we have, and if it isn't serving as a means toward the end, which is the end, is the advancement of the kingdom of God, if the ritual doesn't serve as an advancement toward, then the ritual is wrong. Luther. So this was audacious. There's some things I just learned recently. I'm always learning things about.
Speaker 1:Luther had quite a story. Do you know that corporate singing in the Western church wasn't a thing until Martin Luther gave permission for people to sing, which is praying twice? All it was was chanting and then choir pieces. But Luther turned us into a singing church, a joy-filled church. Confession and absolution has radically evolved its role. It has its origin actually in penance and then satisfying a God through our works, which is obviously not by grace. And then it used to be that people were coming for private confession and absolution in preparation for the Lord's Supper. We turned it into a liturgy. One of the ways that and this is not bad one of the ways that we confess our sins corporately, but unfortunately the private care and prayer and forgiveness for the individual or for the family that largely has been taken out of our culture. And so all of the ways in which the best part of our rituals it is God serving us.
Speaker 1:This is why I'm a Lutheran right. It's the divine service, it's God serving us. I'm passive in this whole endeavor. He's the one that has to show up, work, speak and I have to be killed so that the new man or woman can be raised up. I'm a man, by the way, anyway. The new woman for you in Christ can be raised up and then I can be sent out, connected to the grand love story. This is the part of the divine service. I'm loved, I have a new identity. In my invocation I'm reminded who I am, apart from Christ. With Christ I'm a new creation. I'm a saint in the kingdom of God, I'm moving out into the world as one who hears the word of God and one who is forgiven of all of my sins.
Speaker 1:The two services in the early church we know this historically to be true is the service of the word and the service of the table Service of the word, service of the table. And so if you're adding all these other things, you can add them, just don't miss it. They're a means toward the end, which is the supremacy, the power, the presence of God and his mission out into the world. I'll land this this way. Anytime we put the church and the way we do things ahead of it can be a hindrance to the advancement of the gospel.
Speaker 1:Now this is my podcast. I don't normally touch on LCMS stuff, but you're in our tribe right now and you brought it up, so I'm going to piggyback Anytime we make. This is the way we raise up leaders, the primary way when Jesus didn't tell, the way the early church didn't tell, the way the Lutheran confessions don't tell the way. That's right. Right, we've turned something that is very much adiaphora, potentially residential ed or any way that we do ministry in the local church. We can turn it into an idol and we miss the mission. And it's obviously that the book, the Bible, is obviously about the mission to get the gospel into the ears and hearts of as many people as possible. Go and make disciples In your going, make disciples. How do we do it? We baptize and we teach. We baptize and we teach. So yeah, I think we've made it far too complicated and narrow when our God is advancing and he's wide. Any take on that kind of response, knox?
Speaker 2:No, no, you are right. Like at the top of my mind, I'm thinking you know where the Lord is moving his people in the right direction. The enemy comes in with all spiritual attacks. Right, I am a diehard LCMS at heart. I went to the seminary, I work in ministry and I believe that, truly, the Lord always comes down to us and we don't do anything. It is by grace that we are saved. It is the Lord always comes down to us and we don't do anything. It is by grace that we are saved. It is the Lord's work and I'm just a receiver and thanks be to God for that. But also I believe that there is a spiritual attack on all of us in our synod, where we are just so blinded and are focusing on different things so that the gospel doesn't get to be moving and getting to the people. So may the Lord resurrect. May the Lord arouse bold LCMS, brethren, men and women together, to be praying and interceding for the church and the heart of the church, so that there is room open for the spirit of the Lord to come and redirect us to where he is calling us, not where our minds and our heart are calling us, because we are sinful people. And the focus the journey is long, brother. The journey is long people, and the focus the journey is long, brother, the journey is long, and so during the journey, there's trees, there's oceans, there's things that are distracting, but we are called to look to the cross. So may we be ushered, through the power of the Holy Spirit, to look to the cross and do the right things.
Speaker 2:I wasn't an LCMS. I'm coming from South Africa and I have become a member of this church because I really have come to appreciate the tools that we are using as the exposition of the scripture. Right, the scripture trumps all things, but the exposition tools that we are using to make the scripture come alive and contextual for the people, that's what I resonate with. I recite the creed. I believe in it because it professes the truth. Right, but? But it's the Lord's word and it's for all his people.
Speaker 1:Yes, Amen you in your talk at Ann Arbor. You know where do you see? There are some areas where we could be collectively greedy with the gospel knocks.
Speaker 2:Almost in all platforms that are outside of the church building, we boldly profess and confess the word of God every Sunday. Uh, but the life of, of of a Christian, of, of a follower of Christ, of, of a man and a woman who is enamored by Jesus does not end Sunday morning after service. Um, we need to be well, I, I cannot say we need. I would love to see may the Lord help us that we become the people who leave out church from Monday through Sunday. Come back Monday, that's one. We order the gospel by not inviting other people who are not part of our theology, people who are not a part of us, neighbors who don't look like us. Heaven will be shocking for the many of us. I tell you, brother, there'll be many who do not look Anglo-Saxon, typical LCMS, if I may be so bold.
Speaker 3:No, you can Forgive me saints.
Speaker 2:Forgive me, brethren. No no but.
Speaker 1:Every nation, tribe and tongue Every nation tribe and tongue that is the vision. That is what's going to happen, amen.
Speaker 2:Like, hey, we have the Bibles, we have the catechism, hey, let's share these things, let us not limit them to our schools, our people, our this it's the Lord's, it's the Lord's people, the Lord's schools, the Lord's church, so let us dispense it.
Speaker 2:So, to answer your question, I think we limit the gospel, or we hoarder on the gospel in the places where we feel uncomfortable to sit, in the places where we are, have fought so hard to keep pure, clean and holy, as it should be. But also we can share it from a place of love and a place of tenderness, and maybe we need to be praying that the Lord burdens us for his people. Do you get what I'm saying? Us for His people? Do you get what I'm saying? Because maybe we are so concerned about material things? Right, our burden is for the material and please forgive me, I'm not trying to trivialize the work that has happened historically in the LCMS church. But also, may the Lord burden us for the people, right, because it's it's the people who are the beneficiaries of of these things and and not the buildings or the organization.
Speaker 1:And we have some beautiful buildings.
Speaker 2:You know, we do, we do and we. You know the United States is almost like the whole world. Everybody is in this country, but sometimes we are so focused on oh hey, we got to do a mission trip to Africa, a mission trip to Asia, you know why? Because when we are there, then we know that people will receive the gospel, because we are coming with something that they need. No, we need to be emboldened. Charity begins at home. May the Lord embolden us to do missionaries in our backyard, missionaries at the grocery store. Can we maybe start collecting funds for Costco missionary trips, ok, or I don't know Right that we just go there and be the gospel. Go there and be the hands and feet of Christ. Right, wherever there is a need, let's get the gospel out there. We have the theology, we have the creeds, we have the confessions. They have been passed down to us. Why is it stopping at us? If it was passed down, we shouldn't be gatekeepers. Let's pass it on down.
Speaker 1:Man, this has been so much fun. Knox, I love the way the Lord made you. I want to talk about CUI a little bit and the heart of Concordia, and I would say the heart of all of our Concordias and all of our schools. You know, lutheran schools are by nature like the heart of our mission. Our school here I'm looking at our preschool we know that over 50 of the families don't have a church home, like that's low hanging fruit for us to reach with the gospel. We have more in our K-8 school. But Lutheran schools have been traditionally historically different because they're mission schools, they're not covenant schools and one of the tendencies I hear of some is that our schools are for Lutherans by Lutherans. My goodness, that is not. That's not the heart of Jesus, let alone the heart of the Reformation moving the gospel of grace forward. So CUI is a mission first school, you know. So just yeah, just talk about what God's doing.
Speaker 1:Michael Thomas, the president, thomas is a good friend and just just brag on in the Holy Spirit a little bit what God is doing at CUI.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna start way back when was a student here? I came from South Africa, 2013, freshman year at Concordia. And man, what a place. What a place for me to see the gospel come alive. The professors, the staff, they live the gospel. You know what I mean. You are not just a face right, you are not just a number. You are Knox Shabalala Loom, who is a child of God, who is received, who is known, who is equipped and encouraged and sent out. May, even here in our campus ministry Abbey West University Discipleship. It's your community of discipleship. We are, by God's grace, shaping and forming students in the discipleship of Jesus so that they go out and leave the Great Commission in the communities, wherever the Spirit of the Lord will take them.
Speaker 2:I cannot brag enough about this school and about the Lord's mercy in how he orchestrated all things For me. Selfishly, right now I'm just going to throw myself in the Jesus story. It's Jesus's glory all the way, not Knox's. But I'm so thankful to have been called to serve alongside my brothers and sisters whose palates are so wet for the Lord and his word and whose heart are so tender for the people of the Lord. To hear the word At chapel, to hear the word in the dorms, at the cofter, everywhere, man. In the dorms at the cafeteria, everywhere man. I feel like, yes, in the most tender, tenderest.
Speaker 2:If there's a word like that of ways you get to hear the gospel here at Concordia, and sometimes you don't hear it, brother, you see it, you see it through the professor standing right on the breezeway and saying hi to you and asking how you doing and actually waiting to hear, because the tendency is we like to be people of hey, hi, how are you doing, but we don't stick around to hear how the people are really doing. But in this place people stick around to hear how you're doing and they come in with an embrace and a prayer and an encouragement. What a joy, what a gift. With an embrace and a prayer and an encouragement, what a joy, what a gift. May God continue to be glorified here at CUI as we faithfully serve in his mission field. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Hey, communication department at CUI calling you out, you can take that clip from Knox and spread it out, because who doesn't want to send their kid to come and hear about Jesus and to be shaped by professors, presidents, just everyday followers of Jesus there, by Knox Shabbalala, you are a gift sister. I love the way the spirit of the risen Jesus rests upon you. You know. It says in Ephesians, chapter four, that he gave the apostles, prophets, evangelists and preachers and teachers. You have a prophetic voice for us right now. Praise, yeah, praise, god. You come from outside. We're welcoming you in, I pray.
Speaker 1:We're welcoming many, many others that don't look and sound exactly like us, because the kingdom of God is advancing here in the United States of America, knox, you know this that don't look and sound exactly like us, because the kingdom of God is advancing here in the United States of America, knox, you know this. I think it's between 2040 and 2050, the majority of people are going to be multicultural in the United States of America. Like that is a shift. Are we going to welcome it and all of the different expressions and the tapestry that's going to come? Is it going to be messy for us? It already is in the LCMSB, we're just trying to figure it out together, but I pray.
Speaker 1:What wins the day is love, courage, peace and the mission of God advancing, and we get to be a small part of that big, big story.
Speaker 1:And there has to be what I hear from you as well and I share the same burden there has to be a greater sense of urgency from leaders at every certain level to keep the main thing, the main thing, which is the gospel of Jesus Christ, for the days are too short and will he come and find because I take this very seriously, you know, in the, in the realm of influence that I have from my home, all of my vocations as a husband and a father for you, wife, mother, and then also as a leader within the church. Like Jesus says very, very hard things, it is law that will be held more accountable for those you know, and far be it from us to lead little ones or larger ones away from the heart and the foundation which is. He is a God of love who's made himself known in Jesus Christ. Knox, how can people connect with you, sister, if they desire to do so?
Speaker 2:Facebook that I seldomly check, but I do check it. And email, yes, you can use my personal email, which is the first letter of my name and my last name at AmericanOnlinecom. That's my private email. I will be sure to answer, be it prayer and encouragement or a conversation or clarification. Conversation or clarification it is always my prayer that the Lord helps me to stay ready, in season and out of season, to profess the hope that I have in him, which is alive and living and fails us not.
Speaker 1:Thank you, brother, for having me, so I didn't hear. How many languages do you actually know and speak?
Speaker 2:Well, I come from a country that has 11 official languages and we learn most of them at school. So in South Africa alone I speak nine languages. Right, but most of them are related. And then I have been blessed to know German. I've been blessed to know Mandarin, because I couldn't survive China without Mandarin. I've been blessed to know Korean. I was once a Sunday school teacher at a Korean Lutheran church. So, thanks be to God, I'm trying to learn Spanish.
Speaker 3:I think everybody always asks me here in California if I know Spanish, and it puts me to shame.
Speaker 2:So maybe that will be the next language.
Speaker 1:You know, like 30 languages. I mean there should be no shame. I've never met someone that knows as many languages as you do. So yeah, you're wild Well yeah, well, go to Africa.
Speaker 3:I think many people there speak multiple languages. We've been blessed with the gift of language.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Thanks to God, the arrogance of the American, the US culture in particular. Learn English. Learn English and people are coming over like okay, I'll learn it, I'll learn it sure.
Speaker 1:It'll be one of my 15 languages. You're amazing. This is the Tim Allman Podcast. We pray the joy of Jesus, the urgency of Jesus to get all of God's kids back. The days are too short to do anything otherwise. Please like, subscribe, comment. Wherever it is you take in podcasts this was actually Knox. First I told her it won't be the last, the first podcast she's ever been on, and I was excited for it. And the Holy Spirit did not disappoint. This was a lot of fun. It's a good day. Go make it a great day. Thanks so much, knox. Amen, Praise God, brother.