The Tim Ahlman Podcast
The Tim Ahlman Podcast is your go-to resource for inspiring conversations that equip leaders to thrive in every vocation, inside and outside the church. With three primary focuses, this podcast dives deep into:
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The Tim Ahlman Podcast
Why Young People Are Walking Away from Faith—And What the Church Can Do
Sarah Crowder shares her approach to teaching high school theology, creating inclusive spaces where students feel valued, and uncovering hidden stories of the Reformation while addressing Gen Z's unique challenges.
If you're a parent trying to help your teenager through their faith journey, finding someone who's gone through it before can help you know you're not alone. The gospel gift of forgiveness and restoration is exactly what our world needs.
• Designing classroom spaces where students feel they "belong here" regardless of faith background
• Approaching scripture with humility rather than standing over God's word
• Using music to help imprint God's love and promises into students' hearts
• Addressing Gen Z anxiety by recognizing mental health as physical health
• Creating safe spaces for students to ask questions and express curiosity
• Introducing students to lesser-known Reformation figures like Justice Jonas and Catherine Parr
• Incorporating prayer as a powerful way to connect with even non-religious students
• Building parent communication that supports family spiritual growth
• Embracing the Lutheran mission of sharing the gospel with communities
What misunderstandings do older generations have about Generation Z today? Sarah?
Speaker 2:They're ready to make change. They want to be valued and not thought down upon the heartfelt emotions that they're pouring into the writing for an assignment. I was so impressed that these kids are super talented and I think that we need to be empowering them and seeing them as part of the body of Christ and not as a burden or rolling our eyes or, you know, something like we can't understand.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast. I pray. The joy of Jesus is your strength. Today, as I get to hang out with a sister in Christ that I've admired from afar, heard amazing things about her and her leadership at Faith Lutheran High School in Las Vegas. Today I get to hang out with Sarah Crowder. Let me tell you a little bit about Sarah. She spends her time pouring into 14, 15-year-old freshman high school students. What an amazing call.
Speaker 1:She's a graduate from Concordia, wisconsin, in 2000,. An MA in theology with a focus on Reformation Studies from CUI, concordia University, irvine, in May of 2020. In the summer of 2024, she was one of 10 students this is really cool Student fellows at the Wittenberg Center for Reformation Studies, where she traveled to Germany, england, to immerse herself in the historical and theological significance of the German and English Reformation. She just told me she got to spend three weeks with Reverend Dr Bob Kolb. Shout out to Bob Kolb, he's been on our podcast before. Such an amazing leader, man of faith. And currently Sarah is in the PhD program at Concordia Seminary in St Louis, witha focus on Reformation history. She's the recipient of the Rod Rosenblatt Philosophy, theology and Apologetics Fellowship. That's so cool. She's been married to her husband, jason, for over 20 years and she's a loving mother to Katie and Brendan. How are you doing, sarah? Thanks for hanging with me today.
Speaker 2:Oh, we're doing good in Sin City. It's a great place to do ministry, so welcome Amen. It's such a great morning.
Speaker 1:Bring the gospel of Jesus Christ, turning sinners into saints for sure. So let's get into your high school ministry. What is your approach? You were just telling me you have a lot of students who don't know about Jesus. Right, our Lutheran schools. The best parts of our Lutheran schools is that they're mission oriented. We want to bring as many kids as possible onto our campuses so we can tell them about Jesus. So what is your approach to teaching the Bible to high school students at Faith Lutheran?
Speaker 2:Well, I just want all of my students to know, wherever they're coming from, that they belong in this classroom. I like to share with them that they have been brought into the space, and so I want this physical space to be super comforting and calming, and so we've done a lot of things with the design of the room to make sure that when people walk in, there's this sense of peace and calm. And I want everyone to know, especially my new students. We have a growing school with a growing population in Las Vegas, where there's not a lot of private school opportunities, so a lot of people are drawn to our school just because it's an alternative. They don't really care or know about the Christian aspect, and so I really want my students and their parents to know you belong here. We have built this school because we want to share the gospel with you, and so you might come from a different religious background, you might have no family history of having any faith.
Speaker 2:God has brought you here into my space and we are going to have a great year together exploring God's word.
Speaker 2:And the thing I really invite them to is I like they all get a physical Bible, and it's for some of them, it's the only physical book that they have in their backpack.
Speaker 2:And I like them to think about how we're going to approach God's word.
Speaker 2:And I like them to think about how we're going to approach God's word and I got this from my pastor where a lot of us want to stand over God's word and kind of point down and say I want God's word to say this or I want you know, kind of putting ourselves above God's word and holding it above us and recognizing we have a loving God who cares about you, who created you, that you have value and purpose and that he has a plan for you. So what would life look like if we approach God's word this way? And so that's kind of the posture that we try to take in the classroom is let's explore this idea that God loves you so much that he sent his son to die for you because of his great love. And so in my room there's a life-size kind of glowing cross, because I think if anyone's going to walk into my room they're going to know this is about Jesus. So we get to introduce kids to Jesus and it's the best time we have so much fun.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's so amazing. So talk about your space. I've been into hospitality recently on a invite. Building an invite. Culture, I believe, is the next question that we're going to talk about God's doing something extraordinary in the lives of people who have gone after the idols of our age. We're idol making factories as human beings right, and they eventually become unsatisfactory and then we get to give them the reason for the hope that we have in the God made flesh and the person and work of Jesus. So how do you create a space where people can hear get a little bit more granular, if you would how do you make kids feel safe to receive the gospel?
Speaker 2:Well, for my room we actually got a special grant and so my room was designed. I want to say it was about eight years ago now where we received a special grant to imagine what a classroom of not even the future of what today looks like versus industrial revolution, and so my teaching partner at that time was Dr Will Stelzer, and we tried to create a space that would be super inclusive for group work, so that the tables and chairs are very comfortable and movable, so everything's on wheels and can have blocks, so when the kids come in it's a very comfortable space. I also I always joke with the kids I don't do TikTok or anything, but we had read some studies that talked about color, color use in education and we have a back wall where there's a light panel, and so I said I was tick, tock, cool before those kids do all the you know bedroom lights with it.
Speaker 2:We, we installed this, like you know, kind of high techie color wall in the back to help with transitions, and so I'll do that. Sometimes, when we're trying to change, shift the tone of the room, I can say, okay, now we're going to do quiet time, let's do like a blue color, and then for the next 20 minutes we're going to just kind of be chill. Or sometimes we'll play a really intense game where we're I like to use this a lot of games in class and we use this game kit game where we're fighting aliens, and so I turn the lights green and you know we got to have fun with that, and so so there's the color, the color thing, and then really it's the messaging. Whenever I'm having a open house event, I love to sign up for the, whenever I can to meet those new families, and I always write on the whiteboard you belong here. Because I think, for what Lutheran schools can offer is a place where you get to belong as part of this community, and really that's so important, um, in the, in this, in this ever changing world. Uh to to say to each of these children you belong here, you are uh welcome here, and you might be feeling nervous, uh, but you're the person I'm concerned about the most and so I'm going to make sure that you feel comfortable, that you feel safe and that, um, no matter what happens, we're going to learn together. It's going to be a good experience. So that's kind of. Those are some of the the approaches. Something fun Also my sister's a illustrator and I asked her to make a two big drawings of the map of Israel and the map of the middle East, but with no, no, no words on it, and then we installed glass over the top of it so it becomes like a whiteboard, so we can kind of draw different maps and erase it.
Speaker 2:You know, use that. And so it's a lovely space to teach and it's. I love the location of where we're doing ministry and I love teaching high school. A lot of people are wondering you know, with my PhD, am I looking to go out of high school? The PhD, really, for me, is really a I looking to go out of high school. The PhD really, for me, is really a passion project to unlock some of the Reformation stories that aren't in English yet, but my heart is really with teaching 14-year-olds.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, Well, it sounds like it's a calling and you don't you know, it is a calling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we have some about the call in our Lutheran church. Praise me to God. You've been called to pour into young people, so let's go a little bit deeper in terms of what your year looks like, because I think there's a lot of. There could be parents who maybe, you know, sometimes they may feel guilty. I don't know that I've done enough to teach my kids the truths of scripture. Jesus, fortunately, doesn't work through guilt or shame. He works through love and invitation, and so maybe maybe, as you talk about this, there could be one or two things that a parent or a pastor who could be a parent could take and say this is the right. Next thing, as my kids are moving from kind of the 12, 13, 14, the mind is changing. You know they're hitting puberty. All those different types of emotions are flooding. So what is your approach at that unique, I'd say pivotal stage 14, 15 years old that you take in sharing the greatest story ever connected to the Word of God?
Speaker 2:It's such a fun year for these kids. It's horrible actually for them.
Speaker 1:It's horrible, you remember.
Speaker 2:But for me we get student aid sometimes and I had a girl who I didn't ever have as a freshman but I had her as a student aid and she came in and she was like first quarter. She was like, how do you do this? They're so weird and terrible and awful and I was like I know, but just wait, because we get to witness their kind of entering into it, like just wait until we get to the last unit. You are going to see them transform and it's so cool and it was really cool to kind of take her along this journey. I got to say I'm really my dad was in ministry and he would talk about how his own life had different stages of ministry. So when you're young you have this kind of brotherhood, fellowship with the students and I got to experience that when I was first out of college. But then you're in this kind of more mature stage and I'm at the stage where I feel it's so much more comfortable because I'm older than most of my students' parents and actually I'm even teaching some of my former students' children, which makes me feel extremely old. But what that means is I can come in, especially when I'm communicating with parents and I love to communicate with parents. Teacher-parent relationships can be tricky and I don't think everyone, I wouldn't recommend this for everyone, but for me, really investing time into my parent communications to offer encouragement for them rather than just, like you know, just content, I think has been a really beneficial thing. So what would I say to parents is just, sometimes it's really helpful to find someone who's gone through it so that you can know that you're not alone, because it can feel very isolating when your teenager is, you know, kind of going through all these developmental phases and you don't know what to do and how to have these conversations. And so what I try to do as a teacher and this is I have a kind of unique scenario, I think, but whenever I have an open house and the teachers come, it's like usually the first month, or I'm sorry, the parents come. They are so curious about my class because many of them have never taken a theology class, and so I'll get comments like I wish I could be in your class, or I wish I had a teacher who taught things like you teach, because they didn't have that opportunity when they were kids, and this really stuck in my brain and so I really started leaning into how can I, in a loving, non-burdensome way, teach my parents what we're doing in class, and so I've moved.
Speaker 2:A lot of this came out of COVID as well, where I really wanted my students to have a clear gospel proclamation and not through a mask, like I was wearing a mask in a classroom, but I wanted to make sure my content was clear. I wanted to make sure my content was clear, so I made sure to do high quality recordings of my content so that my students would get to hear the clear gospel without any kind of barriers. And I was like maybe what I need to start doing is communicating that with the parents as well, and so, through YouTube and through my emails, trying to share with them what their students are learning in class and teaching them also ideas of what they could be talking about or encouraging them to take their kids to church. A lot of our families aren't attending church at all. That's not a priority or experience that they've had in their life.
Speaker 2:So that's an invitation that I get to extend out, and I just sent an email this week. You know where I like to be the person. If you're at our school and you don't know what to do. You can contact me and I'll help figure something out. I want to be that helpful person. So, I think, find find a helpful person that you can go to and and just be patient and listening to those kids, because they are going through a lot of hard times and I I've noticed they're missing a lot of the normal maturity mark points and so we're seeing some different things. So if you're feeling like this is confusing, I think we're all right now a little confused and uh, but but we're not alone. We're in a community and, uh, you know, take advantage of the communities that you're in.
Speaker 1:I love that. So as you teach scripture, do you teach. They have their first Bible. I'm really just curious about this from an evangelical perspective. Do you teach the Bible as one united story or yeah, how is it that you because we're all storied beings, right, we communicate and we put ourselves into story rather than just doctrinal statements et cetera, right? So tell the story to give even parents and other pastors a way in which you articulate it to that developmental stage of young people.
Speaker 2:Well, really, what I say my classroom is about is the same thing that the Bible is about. It's all about Jesus, and so we use a metaphor, an image of a bow tie, and this idea of all of the New Testament and all of history is rooted in Christ, and I like to kind of break down the Cairo symbol to the students and help them, give them a little preview of what we're going to learn in our origins and reliability of scripture, about. You know the biblical languages and what these symbols mean, and what does it mean? That Jesus is Christ and that all of scripture is tied into that work of salvation that Jesus did. So, really, when we're looking at the Bible, I like to describe it to them as well, something that they're probably not super familiar with. But this is a library of books that is collected together that gives us so many different ways, because our brains are different from each other and there's different ways that we can learn about the person and work of Jesus, and so how do I approach it when they're first coming in? It's all about Jesus and the metaphor we use to talk about scripture, and we're starting a new unit where we're going to be practicing reading in context, something we do every week with our memory verses, but the main picture is that it's all about Jesus, it's all about his work and what that means in your relationship for you. That work on the cross is actually something for you today and that means you get to be in a right relationship with him because of what he's done and what a blessing that is. How will that change how we respond to our neighbors in love? And so we're always thinking about my goal as a teacher and I think I actually said this out loud I want you to stop looking at yourself and worrying about yourself. Let's look to the cross and look to our neighbor and look at how we can love and serve one another the way that Jesus loved us. And so the first this is kind of fun for parents, and I did a talk on this last June Something that kids today really respond positively in an authentic way.
Speaker 2:Not in a Facebook post and kids aren't on Facebook, so don't even try that but they really respond to prayer. Even my non, even my militant atheists really love when I pray for them. They think that's neat. And so if you are in a congregation or you're a parent and you're wanting to build up your, your students' faith life, be in prayer with them, and so we start with the Lord's Prayer, we start with Jesus and we start with the Lord's Prayer and we pray in class, and we pray for each other and something.
Speaker 2:Kids are very hesitant to speak up in class and sometimes needs are somewhat personal, and so I try to develop an interesting, safe, online relationship with my students where every week, through assignments, I'm soliciting prayer requests from them, either a prayer request of something they need, a supplication, or something that they're grateful for, so we can always everybody can embrace that gratitude and all of our gratitude comes from God. So the practice of prayer is something really valuable for kids today and that's a really easy connection point for us. But to make it personal for them and to know what their concerns are, they are very much appreciative of when people are praying for them and knowing their needs. I think that's something that they really, really appreciate in our classroom space.
Speaker 1:Hey, that's so good. I love how personal you are with your students and how you center it all on Jesus. Shout out to Dr Mittendorf at Concordia, irvine, right With the bow tie kind of image.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:Creation to recreation, the center point in between is crucified and risen and reigning one, Jesus that's right between his crucified and risen and reigning one Jesus, and the sending that he has now by the power of his spirit through us, through the body of Christ, through the baptized, to bring the love and light of Jesus in anticipation of Jesus returning. I love your passion, I love how personal you are. Prayer is very, very personal and I just can already sense the rapport and care. I got a freshman daughter. My youngest is a freshman daughter. I'm like I wish she could learn from soon to be Dr Sarah Crowder. So, yeah, super, super cool, let's get into, let's get a little higher level.
Speaker 1:On Generation Z, I believe God is doing something incredible with that generation. My son I was just returning from a basketball game in Payson that's about an hour and a half away from where we live and so I got the joy of driving him back from that game yesterday and he wanted to talk and listen to podcasts on apologetics. It was so I couldn't believe it. Actually I was like this is awesome. He goes. Have you heard of so-and-so? He knows all these different apologists in and outside of the Missouri Senate. It was such a fun time. His brain is moving in a beautiful direction. He's a sophomore, he's 16. In a beautiful direction toward what is this thing called Christianity, and not just how do I defend it, but how does it take shape in me and shape how I live every single day. I feel like within him and within his generation, there's a real spiritual awakening that's taking place right now. So what misunderstandings do older generations have about Generation Z today? Sarah?
Speaker 2:I'm not sure I could speak to specific, like data, but I think it could be general, just older people to younger people. They're ready to make change. They want to be valued and not thought down upon. Something that has really inspired me the last two weeks is looking at some of my students' writing samples and with the advent of AI and this kind of there's a lot of fear. I think rightfully so. But there's also a lot of skepticism with. You know how do you assess a student's work if you're not sure they made it? But we have a system at our school where they're writing on a locked down computer, so there's no AI involved and the care that they're putting into their crafting of their words and the heartfelt emotions that they're pouring into the writing for an assignment.
Speaker 2:I was like so impressed that these kids are super talented and I think that we need to be empowering them and seeing them as part of the body of Christ and not as a burden or rolling our eyes or, you know, something like we can't understand what they're going through. They've had the things they face. I never had to face the things that they go through on a daily basis or the thoughts that they have. You talk about a safe place. You know it's not. They don't go to safe schools. They go and they're thinking I'm scared to put my phone up in the caddy because if something happens how will I text my mom. You know what I'm saying. So we live in a totally scary world.
Speaker 2:I think similar to you, watch the old videos of the kids doing the drills for the nuclear. You know the nuclear thing. We're doing drills all the time for active shooters. Imagine what that's like. We didn't grow up with that. We didn't grow up with that and thankfully, but I would say there's a lot of room for compassion, for us to reach out to these students, to encourage them, to pray for them and to empower them to step into leadership and help them as they're making choices about where they're going to be going in their future, and be alongside them and not looking down on them.
Speaker 1:Love your heart. It's so good. Anxious Generation. Have you read the Anxious Generation?
Speaker 2:I haven't read it I have so much limited time on extra reading but it's definitely on the list and I've listened to some podcasts about that and I don't doubt it. I don't doubt it and so I think it's so powerful. So in my own home I've got a 13-year-old who's Chinese, but from New Zealand, so we host international students and I have my son who's 17. And so the anxiety in the home connected to cell phone use. It's one thing to say you're on your cell phone all the time, but really I got to point my finger at myself I'm on the cell, I'm on my phone more than the kids are in lots of ways. And so demonstrating that not finger pointing, but actually demonstrating you know what the world's kind of crazy right now, at seven o'clock, let's put these phones. Let's all just put our phones away, like let's just take a break and be together, or, you know, having family meals together and listening and talking to each other. It's not something that they need, it's something we need right, the anxious generation.
Speaker 2:I think we are also in that space of caring for these kids who have such really high anxiety and real depression.
Speaker 2:Something that we just did in class we do an adversity unit where we kind of trace.
Speaker 2:I want them to get a sense of the Old Testament scriptures and I also like to we spend some time in Job. We do like five chapters there's just so many chapters in that very dense book and we talk about grief and how we can think about grief and connection to the cross, and when we're thinking about anxiety and depression and the mental health crisis that this generation's going through, to not see that as something like made up or imaginary, but to actually know that mental health is actual physical health, I think is something that maybe we are not aware of. I feel like the kids are aware of this more than I and my generation are aware of, and I don't think sometimes we recognize that mental health and severe anxiety and depression has a very real presence in their physical life. It's not just something that's in a head or something like this, and so to respect that, what they're going through, and to try to understand that, I think it would be really helpful in loving this generation.
Speaker 1:Isn't it cool, so good. Isn't it cool how Jesus comes to us. This is deep Lutheran theology. Right, we don't draw near to God. He and the person and work of Jesus is drawn near to us. And there are certain stories in scripture, I think you bring up grief. You know the story of Lazarus and Jesus weeping with Mary and Martha. You know sitting with them in their pain and suffering, offering the hope of the resurrection, and then Jesus restoring Peter. There's a kindness and a compassion to Christ that is overwhelming. And then, as you teach them who Jesus is and how much he loves them, he's the reigning one. I've been on a kick recently of thinking where is Jesus right now? Well, he's reigning over all things and by the power of his spirit he makes you the crucified and risen. And reigning Jesus by the power of the spirit makes you his dwelling place. So he's nearer to you than you can possibly imagine. He's carrying you, he loves you, he smiles over you and he cries. He cries with you. Yeah, anything more to say about the kindness of Jesus?
Speaker 2:Two things I think it's important to get to the blood of Jesus like the actual sacrifice and, um, the. The other thing I think is important when you talk about anxiety and soothing is the power of music. And so, um, when I I taught at, faith was my first call, and then we moved to Missouri and then I came back, and when I came back, my, my good friend and mentor, bob Matthews, said Sarah, never stopped singing with the kids, cause the Holy Spirit works through music to imprint God's love into their hearts and God's word and his promise. And so I make a habit of Mondays and Tuesdays doing song day, and yesterday, as we were concluding our adversity unit, they took the quiz and I actually moved Songae to the end of class and I just said, kind of what you were just saying of hey, we all have our adversities and there's some adversities in this room that you've never even shared with anyone. But Jesus knows this and he comes down to us. We don't have a far off God who's observing our grief and adversity from afar, but Jesus has joined up with us.
Speaker 2:And then what do I get to do? We get to sing this dust by Kip Fox, where it talks about his mercy rains and his blood covers over all of this dust and connecting it to Job's, you know, lament and it's beautiful, you know. And I had a. I had a person man. I wish I could do a podcast without getting teary-eyed, but it's fun to talk about what God is doing. I had someone come and serve my classroom last Friday and he said that he went to college with one of my students I taught and let's see, this would have been like eight years ago and he still remembers the grief lesson with this dust song and I had kind of forgotten that I had done this dust with the. But because that sticks and if we can use, you know, we. I just took a class with Dr Olowski on the Psalms and the power of singing God's word to imprint it onto our hearts so that that actually can bring healing and comfort and soothing. God's given these gifts and we get to share them. That's awesome.
Speaker 1:Human beings are hardwired for story and for experiences that shape us.
Speaker 1:And sometimes as Lutherans, because we don't want to be enthusiasts, et cetera. It's about God's work, not us ascending by the power of our passionate praise or anything like that. Sometimes we kind of walk right past the power of an experience with the crucified and risen Jesus as His people sing His praises, in whatever style, as long as it's good music connected to the scriptures, let that song be heard. That's amazing that someone would come back and they remember One. They remember how much you love them. They may not remember all the lessons, but some, some lessons the Holy Spirit at the right time brings to mind, especially a grief story, because in this world you will have trouble. So when these kids go out in the world, where is God? In the midst of my suffering, he's right there with you. He cares for you more than you can possibly imagine Anything more to say to the power of experience there, sarah.
Speaker 2:Well, I just was having a meeting about AI stuff and you know I subscribed to Bernard Bull's sub stack and talking about how do you communicate in an unchatbotable kind of a way, and so how can we share the gospel in a powerful way in this AI world, where I could just, you know, I could and I've been, you know, throwing some of my lessons into AI and saying how can I improve this, how can I make it better? But to make it impactful, it has to be an experience that I've lived, where I'm sharing my experience with the students and so I can teach them about, well, some of the questions we just had, our Lutheran Schools Week and our baptism chapel, and a lot of students wonder could I be baptized twice or what if someone wants to be baptized twice? And I can explain that to them. I could use scripture and I do, but I can also tell them the story about the time when my dad, you know, kind of walked away from his faith for a time and came back and wanted to be rebaptized and how he struggled through this with his pastor and his realization of how baptism is God's work. This is not something that I'm doing and that God's promise that he made to me when I was a baby is true, because it's God's work, not mine.
Speaker 2:And so when we the experience is crucial for today because that's where reality is when we're dealing with all of these different ways of communication, if it is true from my lived experience and I'm being transparent and open with my students that's real powerful experience that they can draw from, and so I'm really kind of trying to lean into.
Speaker 2:As I'm teaching my students, I want to show and demonstrate how the Christian life looks. It should look joyful, it should look difficult because we're doing uncomfortable things and we're going into uncomfortable spaces because that's where Jesus calls us to, and so you've got to kind of take the kids with you when you go and have these experiences and sharing the experience and I think I was talking to one of our other teachers who's developing a leadership class and he wants to take them on a mission trip so they can get some leadership experience and have that mission opportunity and I think in education, with this changing world, the experience of travel and learning from other cultures and building relationships, that's where the huge value is going to be going forward, and it's always been there, but it's like even more clear now that that's where we need to be.
Speaker 1:Yes, amen. So grateful for you. This is so much fun. So let's get into the Reformation. You said, yeah, let's just pivot to the Reformation. You said there are some unearthed stories of the Reformation that you're exploring. Give me a couple, three of your favorite of these unearthed stories that the average Jesus follower and Lutheran who comes from that Lutheran foundation, that Lutheran heritage, would really, really resonate with. I'm curious.
Speaker 2:Well, so my poor husband you know, he, he, I, you know I, I'm so happy to teach theology and I'm so happy being a teacher. And back in 2017, my husband was like you really need to get your master's, you know it's pay scale, Like you got to move them. And I was like I don't to get your master's, you know it's pay scale, like you got to move them. And I was like I don't want to do anything for a fricking pay scale. That sounds awful. But then I saw that Concordia Irvine had a reformation history cohort and I had that. This is when I was like really, I still am really into Hamilton. Are you a musical?
Speaker 1:guy oh my gosh, I was like really seen it a couple times.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, I was like really into Hamilton and I had this thought I actually was in a trailer, like in a camper, with my friend my best friend from growing up, and I was like what if I could learn enough about the Reformation that I would know what all these figures sound like and who they're fighting against and how they're harmonizing or speaking? You know what kind of music would I sign to Luther or Erasmus or you know the emperor Like? How would they interact with each other in a way that I could demonstrate that in a new media? So I'm not like a I'm not a PhD student who's going into the academic world because I like to write papers good grief or like I don't really want to teach college at all, but I do love these stories and the one that got me.
Speaker 2:Well, the thing that really started this whole journey is I had Dr Scott Keith, who's the executive director for the 1517. He was my creeds and confessions teacher and I was writing a paper on a catechism. I'm like, oh, I'm a teacher, I should do the catechism. And it all started with this footnote I think it's in the Book of Concord, or the historical context of the Book of Concord the introduction to the catechism, where there's because Dr Keith just was like you always have to chase the footnotes, that's what your game is. You're always looking at the footnotes, that's where all the good stuff is. And so I was trying to take this advice. And there's this little footnote, and I should ask Dr Kolb if he wrote this footnote. But basically saying that Luther wrote the small catechism, even though he had told Justice Jonas and this other guy to write the catechism, was kind of like why would this guy not do what Martin Luther asked? Who is he? I've never heard of him and how cool of a name is Justice Jonas. And so then I was like I'm going to explore this a little bit and find out that Justice Jonas I think is a fascinating lens into the story of the Reformation, the impact of humanism, his experience being a canon lawyer, his experience at Erfurt, his relationship with Erasmus. But the thing that I love the most and I will never stop talking about this story, I will always talk about this story.
Speaker 2:When he is hired to come from Erfurt to Wittenberg to teach, the elector calls him to teach canon law, which is, you know, basically the laws of the church. He's not so excited about this and Luther and Melanchthon, are so excited to get another really talented translator he's really known as being a good translator and so they both kind of write to the elector like please, can he teach Bible or teach you know something, not canon law? And the lector would not change. And so Jonas, out of his own pocket, hire someone to teach canon law. And he comes to Wittenberg and teaches the Bible and I'm like, oh, okay, okay, this is good, this is what it's. It's. It's it's that you know.
Speaker 2:And so the thing that's funny is, trying to read about Jonas, almost all of his primary stuff is still only in Latin and German. And so I'm going around asking people, I'm trying to read this paper, but it's in Latin. What do I do? Or where can I find an English translation of this? And everyone's like that's questions a PhD student would ask. And I'm like, well, I teach high school, so I don't need a PhD, but couldn't stop.
Speaker 2:But my thesis got me really interested into the English Reformation because as I'm doing this catechism research and looking at Justice Jonas, the thing that keeps popping up is this English catechism in 1548 that Thomas Cranmer had translated. That Thomas Cramner had translated, and the first English Protestant catechism printed in England is a translation from Justice Jonas's translation of Andreas Osiander's German sermons, based off Luther's small catechism. It's a Lutheran real presence, small catechism printed in England. And I'm like, and what's fun about the English Reformation is it's in English and so I can read it and I can understand it. And so I began to really be very curious about, well, what's going on in England and just the. So Thomas Cranmer and searching into his impact.
Speaker 2:And boy, you talk about someone that we all are influenced by but we don't really know.
Speaker 2:I mean, he has really written our English liturgical language and I don't think we really understand or appreciate what he's done in the beautiful work that he did bringing the gospel into the English language with his Book of Common Prayer and with his work that he did.
Speaker 2:And you talk about dangerous times, being a Protestant under Henry VIII and his reign, kind of wild times. So he's been really fascinating and I don't know if this is to me, there's a lot of. Well, you got another musical six where you talk about the wives of Henry VIII and the drama and the stories of England, tudor England. I mean there is, I think, a space there where you have a lot of people interested in this time period and a lot of people who are interested in Anne Boleyn and Catherine Parr. But these are women who are also theologians and I'd like to be able to come into a theological space, into this historical space, and say Catherine Parr has some really beautiful things to say about the Protestant faith and justification by faith alone. How cool is that that we can read that in English from these voices from the 16th century. So there's so much fun stuff.
Speaker 1:There's so much fun stuff, sarah. You're dropping so much knowledge here. It's blowing my mind, don't?
Speaker 2:you love Jonas, though. I mean, isn't that the coolest thing?
Speaker 1:Well, so that's the question why didn't he listen to Luther and do the small catechism? Have you found that out yet? We don't know. Is that a mystery?
Speaker 2:Well, so no, it's a mystery. I mean, I think that this is my headcanon maybe we'll say I think Jonas is always known as very faithful, very loyal.
Speaker 2:He's like Luther's best friend. Luther's going for his problems. Katie writes to Jonas come over, calm Luther down, he's such the companion, he's such the support. Why doesn't he do this? I think his partner had some problems, that he was having some problems with the law, and so I think that was maybe not a good match. I also think what's the result of it and did he have an impact of it? Him not writing it means what Luther wrote, the small catechism. I think that that was probably one of the most important documents of the 16th century and if Jonas would have written it would have been as impactful. So I don't know the why, but I kind of like the why of Luther needed to write that small catechism and him not doing it kind of made Luther do that. So thank you, jonas for not. I'm rose-colored. I am not very objective when it comes to Jonas, because I love the results of his life and his passion for his family and his wives. He married. He has three different wives at different times.
Speaker 1:Not.
Speaker 2:Henry VIII kind of stuff. But he was passionate about the gospel and he was always shining the light on the gospel not himself, and I think it's interesting. I don't think I could tell you with. My heart tells me that he knew Luther needs to write this catechism because this is going to be an important document.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, that's my gut, I know evidence for that.
Speaker 2:but I like it Like. I feel like that would my dream. My dream for the PhD is I want to bring these primary sources to life on video. I want to bring some of these stories in an accessible, short but historically accurate way. So I have this dream of you know, catherine Parr writes this letter Lamentations of a Sinner. She writes this published document. It's an autobiography of her coming to a Protestant faith where she's no longer feeling lost in the maze, biography of her coming to a Protestant faith where she's no longer feeling lost in the maze. Well, I mean, how cool would it be to recreate this experience of her writing it and seeing her handwriting and hearing her voice and seeing her walk through a maze and putting it into a form where it's like a primary document that I could show to my 14 year olds and be like, wow, the gospel just really unlocked things for Catherine Park, like I think that's so, that's so cool.
Speaker 1:You know it's, it's spectacular. So, while I'm thinking about it, if you want to make a proposal, we have a studio connected to our church, red Barrel Studios. We're working on our first full length film and if you want to, do a short film kind of concept. Our crew is very interested in that. There's a lot that needs to be shared here. What I think about Luther's story is I'm hearing you kind of he's very human, he's wrestling. We know he had anfechtungen.
Speaker 1:You know I didn't say that wrong, the kind of dark night of the soul he lived with kind of a weightiness.
Speaker 1:And Luther had to have friends like Justice Jonas and I think he knew sometimes when leaders are in, I think he knew like something with the Holy Spirit was shifting something in time and space here on planet earth and it was a heavy shift right and there's no way he's able to run as long right as much as he does apart from the support of of friends who probably I'm thinking my, my creative mind goes. Luther liked to drink beer or something, so he's probably with justice Jonas some night, just like I got a lot going on right now and justice goes, I know, but but I know you asked me that to to write that. But I a lot going on right now and justice goes, I know, but but I know you asked me that to write that, but I this is going to be really, really pivotal, not just for the church but for families in the church. So it's gotta be you, brother, I'm sorry, and it's going to be great.
Speaker 1:I'm here to support and champion that work, but but let's go. I kind of think that's how it may have may have sounded, but my but my big question we don't hear much about the English Reformation. I mean, those of us with Lutheran roots are Anglican brothers and sisters. We're pretty tight liturgically, historically, so connect kind of German Lutheranism to 16th century Anglican movement and it appears as if a lot in Germany and in England they're running down the same tracks in many, many respects. And obviously Kramer, his common book of prayer, they were super. We as American Lutherans, I don't think spend enough time thinking about the impact of the English Reformation. So I love that you're going down that path. I think most of the time it's from Germany to then maybe Scandinavia, our roots, but we may skip our English roots. So say a little bit more there to help the hearer. Let's just break it down basically how did the English Reformation and the German Reformation intersect? Just at a five-minute overview, take us to school, sarah.
Speaker 2:It's a controversial kind of a take, because it is really interesting to see your own bias as an American Lutheran. This summer I got to spend time as the only American Lutheran in a group of 10 other scholars and to realize whoa I'm really. We have a really different takes on things, and what we, what we see around us, is, is pretty different than you know an Anglican priest from England or from New Zealand, or a Lutheran from India or a Lutheran from Germany, and so it was so cool to have conversations with my student fellows, my fellow students in Germany, and the big thing, I think, is this got people heated the idea of the Reformation as a singular capital R, that we have actually sister reformations. We have many reformations. The English Reformation is happening at the same time, the German Reformation. It's all kind of coming out of humanism, coming out of the medieval piety. We have so many things happening at the same time, and so I would say it's quite actually complex and not quite linked together, but happening side by side.
Speaker 2:A key thing that is interesting to look at, where we can like actually look at this kind of gathering together, is after Luther's death, during the Augsburg interim, where England becomes like a safe haven, while Edward VI is king, and he's a Protestant king but he's a boy and so but during this time it was not safe to be Protestant on the continent. And so you have this gathering and I'm not sure if this will be my dissertation, but it is an area I'm very interested in 1548, 49, what's happening in England as Lutherans, as Justice Jonas' son is going and delivering the loci to Thomas Cramner, as we have, you know, martin Bucer and Peter Martyr, vermigli, and all of these guys kind of gathering in England, and then we have, you know, just all this kind of gathering and this time of kind of safe harbor in England. I think that's something we don't probably really think about very much. I think that's an interesting place and there was I mean, we see it today too there was a desire for an ecumenical move to unite, but we just couldn't unite over Lord's Supper, and so that you know, that becomes something difficult. I mean, you look at going back, you know, marburg Colloquy, there was so much agreement there but there was just not the real presence agreement, and that's a really big deal, and I think it is a big deal. So how do we navigate this? It's complex, but I think what's a five minute rundown. I would say that there there wasn't a ton.
Speaker 2:Luther was not super accepted in England by the. You know you've got Henry VIII writing probably someone else writing his defense of the pope and getting the defender of the faith title which is still today, and he's, he's, he starts the Church of England, but he's at his heart a Catholic believer. But Cramner is kind of putting forth these Protestant moves of faith alone, justification by faith alone, and I think that what's helpful is to see the connections, not necessarily in that moment of the 16th century, but really going back and seeing the effect of Augustine's writings on both of these people. Augustine has this huge influence for both Luther and Cranmer and so you can see this with I finally I've never had a class on Augustine and I finally was able to do some.
Speaker 2:I got to read his exposition on the Psalms and, boy, boy, it's nice, cause I've tried reading of city of God a couple of times and you're just like, ooh, it's just like really, it's really, it's really. You're like, wow, amazing, but like the Psalms when he's preaching, oh, soothing, and his oh soothing and his rhetoric of drawing his listener into this loving relationship with God and the focus on truth, love and beauty and this kind of beautiful connection to the transformation that happens when we walk with Christ. Oh, that's, that's pretty powerful stuff. That's pretty powerful stuff. So, um, I think that is. I'm trying to learn.
Speaker 2:The more you learn, the more. The more I other, the more you're just like I get smaller and smaller. As more I learn more and the more comfortable I'm saying oh, I really don't know much. I really couldn't say much about this topic, even though I could probably talk for four hours without notes, but I really know, I'm just at the surface of it. You know like there's so much to research. So, to understand the Reformation, I think it's really important to go back to understand the medieval era, to understand the church fathers and to understand the impact and the value that they were sharing in their writings as well.
Speaker 1:That's really good. That's really good. That's really good. I haven't read. I got to read that Augustine's take on the Psalms. Well, luther's-.
Speaker 2:Oh, they're very nice.
Speaker 1:Luther's first translation first work was like working with the Psalms that had to be influenced by Augustine right.
Speaker 2:That's right, and so I just did a paper on this. So one of my students was like Mrs Crayon, what was your paper about? And I kind of started giving her the outline of the paper and then I realized, oh, I should have just told her it was about Psalm 124. Like I should have just said that.
Speaker 2:But Luther when I mean it was one of the first moves he does, he's teaching the Psalms, but then he wants to put the Psalms into the vernacular, because what do the church fathers do with the Psalms? This word of God becomes our word. So much of the exegetical moves is to try to understand scripture in context and not make it about yourself. But, like with the Psalms, they're written for us to speak these words to God and these are the words of Christ. And so we have this kind of beautiful connection to Christ in the Psalms where we, with Christ, are speaking these words. Luther's like guys, guys, guys, spallatin, jonas, everybody.
Speaker 2:We got to write the Psalms in German to music, so that the children, 10 year olds and younger, so that they can have these words in their hearts in their daily work, not just in worship, but that it's a daily experiencing and walking in the word of God, and so so he sends this call out and he asks Jonas to do Psalm 124. So I was like let's see what Augustine and Ambrose say about Psalm 124. And this is kind of beautiful. All of them, all of them see the Psalms as this powerful way of a Christian to speak God's word and that it belongs to them. And as they sing it, and they sing it in community, we're joined with the people of God and with Christ, because the Psalms are Christ and oh, it's fun. It's fun stuff.
Speaker 1:Sarah, man, I could talk to you for a long time. I'm trying to make a decision Like what are the last couple of topics? We can just hang in the last 10 minutes or so. But, man, faith is so blessed to have you, you're a gift to the LCMS and your mind is so alive. And what I love, listener, is I get to hang out with a lot of different leaders at a lot of different levels.
Speaker 1:What I hear in you is remarkable curiosity and, at the same time, remarkable humility. If I could snap my fingers and say that quality needs to be in every academic, every leader, every pastor. It's curiosity, it's humility. The more you know about a small little thing, that means there's a lot you don't know about other small little things in other disciplines. There's no way, or there shouldn't be a way, that any of us could say you know what, I'm an expert in this and that means you should listen to me. No, no, no, that means you're ignorant about a lot of other things. Let's just hang there Like the more you know, the more you realize you don't know. Sarah, talk about that.
Speaker 2:Well, in the last two years I've really with my colleagues. We have, you know, weekly professional development and we have been really struggling with this idea of how do we make it safe and an expectation that our students are curious. We want our students to be curious about God's word and asking questions, and so for years I've been doing these videos with my students. We have weekly memory verses and I want them to. I'm trying to train them to never take a verse and run with it that we always want to read a verse in context. So Mondays, tuesdays, after song day, they do their video where I'm teaching them because I want individualized instruction. I'm teaching them to read their memory verse in context and understand it. And for years, at the end of the video I asked do you have any questions? And most of the kids would say no and we were like, okay, this is unacceptable. We need to create an environment where the kids feel safe and actually empowered to be questioning scripture, because that is where learning happens. And if we're just forcing stuff on them and saying any questions, no, that's good, that's actually the worst thing. And so really spending time creating opportunities for the students to feel safe to ask questions and grappling with those questions and saying, oh, I've never thought of that, and sharing that with one another. That's what we should do, and I love the kids are like is it okay to ask questions? Well, look at Jesus. Almost everything he says he's asking questions as if he doesn't know, like he knows. But it's part of how we have conversations with one another. It's part of how we have conversations with one another, and so I love to be curious. And what does that look like, asking questions? And so we're just really trying to figure that out, and there's some really good resources out there. But to empower and demonstrate so we were talking earlier about parents and what can they do? Be curious, ask them questions, engage in the behavior that you want to see in them. And uh, yeah, it's, and it's with that humility, right, um, because I've I've had students ask questions that you're like, oh, that's, it's pretty bold. Take on God there. Uh, kiddo, but let's go back to our uh, you know our loving God, who has created us and cares for us. You're kind of painting this other picture. Where's your evidence? Let's explore this. But to be able and transparent and vulnerable, to be in a space where we're going to open the floor to any questions and that they know that they're safe to ask these questions and that they know that they're safe to ask these questions. I think that's important, and being curious can open up into other realms.
Speaker 2:Something that happened during COVID that I think was really a huge impact on me is we host international students, and so during COVID, lockdown times and then after this kind of huge surge in Asian hate happening and being a mom to a kid who's experiencing this, I was like oh my gosh, and so being curious about asking my students and having conversations, and so we took a little break from the curriculum to talk about racism and and hatred and it it was very eyeopening to see how many of our students are experiencing racism and I'm like, because I don't experience, you know, I don't experience that and so to to really take time and to and to explore that, that was really huge for my students to go through that and especially for me to be like, well, I don't, just because I don't understand it doesn't mean I can't learn from my students, and so turning that around and taking some time to understand what they were facing I mean some of our kids walking home from school having people rolling down their windows and yelling at them.
Speaker 2:Even my Hawaiian students are being treated as if they go back to China or something horrible like this.
Speaker 2:And so, as we are learning and being curious about these topics, it gives us a chance to really be learning about how we can really love our neighbor.
Speaker 2:And that looks like neighbors who don't look like us and my students, I think, saw how I am willing to learn, and I think that through that lesson and through that experience, one of my students asked me if I would be willing to be their faculty advisor for our Black Student Association, and I'm like I do not have time, I have no spare time and I don't think I am the right person for that, but I hear your call and I will do this and I can learn. And so you know, that's huge when we can demonstrate that we are willing to learn from others different than ourselves and to try to understand where they're coming from. So that's something really exciting. That's happening is that we are seeing this new kind of how does it look to care for our neighbor? It means when our neighbor's hurting, we listen to them and we try to figure out how we can help them. I think that's really powerful stuff.
Speaker 1:Ah, love this. I love this so much. All right, last questions. You and I are both longtime working Cordia grads. I'm Seward, You're Wisconsin, and we care about the Missouri Synod, Every group of people, every family, every organization, church, school and synod. We all have things, gifts and gaps in areas we need to we're thriving and areas where we need to grow. So let's just talk. What makes you, first off, proud to be a part of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod? Sarah?
Speaker 2:I love our mission. You know we have the gospel. We have this clear, beautiful gift to give In class at the end of first semester. We get to watch the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe and one of my favorite things is when Lucy is going through the battlefield and giving this healing gift that she got from Father Christmas. That's what I feel like. I feel like I get empowered to go into my community and share this good gospel gift and we have there's no in the Lutheran Church. I feel like we have a very clear gospel gift to give to people. Let's go Like what are we waiting for? Let's go and share this good news with our community.
Speaker 2:I'm so excited about my church. You know we've got a Mandarin ministry at our church. We've got a Hispanic ministry. We've got an Oromo congregation. We've got such wonderful opportunities around us, our congregations, to go into our communities and to really see the church.
Speaker 2:You go back to Luther. A fun little German thing with Luther is, as he is developing, how he starts writing about the church. There's a German word for church that's more like the building of the church and the German word for community and he really sees the church as a community and this welcoming body of believers, and so that's our let's, that's our strength, I think, is this gospel gift that we get to share in our community and with our neighbors. Let's, let's go. We we have. We have what people need. We live in a cancel culture where you make one misstep and there's no forgiveness. We have forgiveness, we have love, we have restoration through Christ. If we can swallow our pride and be humble to love our neighbors, let's go. It's exciting.
Speaker 2:I wish we had more teachers. We at Faith, we are growing, we have a waiting list, we need more teachers at our school and we can't get them, and so we're starting to train our own teachers and trying to get teachers to come to our schools, and it's horrifying to see our opportunity shrink when we are desperate in the field. In this battlefield of sharing the gospel, we need more people to come and share the gospel with us. So if you can empower a student to think about going into teaching, becoming a pastor, just be that person. It's usually a person in the life of a student who says, hey, you know what. You have such a clear way of speaking about the gospel. Have you ever thought about being a pastor? Have you ever thought about being a teacher. You would be an amazing teacher and it would be so awesome to work alongside you. So, yeah, I think we have such a good message. Let's just go and share it. Let's go get out there, amen.
Speaker 1:Amen Love that. Sarah, this has been so much fun. You're a gift to me and to the body of Christ and I can't wait to connect with you. Are you going to be a best practices conference coming up?
Speaker 2:I wish I, because of my PhD, I missed two weeks of school in January. So I, I, I don't. I don't think I'll be able to do best practice I've never been, but I hear it looks like such a good time. It will be awesome.
Speaker 1:It is, it is. But if people want to connect with you and and stay yeah, just stay connected with you on your learning journey, how can they do so, Sarah?
Speaker 2:I share a lot of stuff on my Instagram as a public Instagram and I like to share. You might see a lot of time lapses and people my husband's like who cares about time lapses, and I'm like, listen, when I'm filming a time lapse I'm not on my phone, so it's kind of like my study hack of when I need to like actually buckle down and study for an hour, I'm putting my phone on a time lapse. I'm like, oh, I'll throw it on Instagram. I wish my dream. I don't need to have a PhD to have to be a YouTuber. But, like, I love to create content on YouTube and so there's a. There's a fun video on there, if you're a Dr Kolb fan of, of how I got into the Wittenberg center on there and basically how his book really pushed me into the PhD program, because the reason I'm at Concordia Seminary is because I wanted to work with Dr Kolb and I got that wish and I'm so happy and so, yeah, youtube, instagram, those are good ways to connect with me.
Speaker 1:Just your name on YouTube. You got a YouTube channel, your name.
Speaker 2:Yes, yep, it's Sarah Crowder. I think my Instagram is Sarah M Crowder. But also, if you want to hear me speak, 1517 has me doing speaking events every so often, so I'll be speaking at their. Here we Still Stand in October in San Diego on the bondage of the will, and so that'll be. Really, I love those. Man, if you have not been to a 1517 event, those are good times, those are good times. And if your son's looking for apologetics podcasts, man, they've got podcasts everywhere. But yeah, 1517, I have articles and some of my talks are up on there. So if you want to see me speaking, you can check out their stuff. But yeah, I'm having fun in Las Vegas.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're grateful for you. This is the Tim Allman Podcast. Please like, subscribe, comment. Wherever it is you take these helpful, jesus-centered conversations in, and may curiosity and humility be what wins the day, and when you couple those two characteristics, life is a divine adventure. As you follow after Jesus, your leader and your Lord, it's a good day. Go make it a great day. Thanks, sarah, wonderful work.
Speaker 2:Thank you.