The Tim Ahlman Podcast
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The Tim Ahlman Podcast
Charessa Koontz Shares Wisdom on Nurturing Healthy Sexuality in Youth
This episode delves into the complexities of human sexuality, emphasizing the importance of open and loving conversations around sexual integrity, identity, and the challenges faced by today's youth. Charessa Koontz shares valuable insights on the changing attitudes of Generation Z regarding sexuality, the impact of pornography, and practical ways for families to engage in these essential discussions.
Infograpic:
https://www.dailyinfographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/internet_porn-640x2590.jpg
• Recognizing the need for deeper conversations on sexuality
• Emphasizing sexual integrity over sexual purity
• Discussing alarming statistics about teen sexual activity and pornography exposure
• Highlighting the rise of LGBTQ+ identification among Gen Z
• Addressing the importance of healthy communication with parents and young people
• Understanding the role of shame and the need for grace in conversations
• Advocating for singleness as a valid and esteemed lifestyle choice
• Offering practical tips for engaging in sensitive discussions
• Encouraging ongoing discourse rather than one-time talks
• Highlighting resources for further education on this crucial topic
Welcome to the American Reformation podcast. I pray. The joy of Jesus is your strength. I am Tim Allman and today I get the privilege of hanging out for the second time with Charissa Kuntz. How are you doing, charissa?
Speaker 2:I'm great. How are you doing today, Tim?
Speaker 1:So good. 25 years of the DCE she's been in family life ministry and last time we talked we did a lot of. We did a lot of, had a lot of conversation on caring for the next gen, the anxious generation, et cetera. But she's done a lot of work in human sexuality. And sexuality is such a kind of a loaded topic today and I think we need to learn more. We know that Satan loves to steal, kill, destroy and divide us from one another and from others who are created in the image of God, but maybe making different choices, maybe confused, and as Lutherans specifically and we got non-Lutherans listening to this but identity, baptismal identity, is such a major part of our story, and then our identity and our various vocations as a husband and father, wife, mother and out into the marketplace. So identity is huge and that's where we're going to be orienting ourselves today. So tell us, charissa, how you kind of came to wanting to do deep work on the topic of human sexuality.
Speaker 2:Right, so I'll kind of start. So I was a student at Concordia University, nebraska, and I was just finishing up. My husband and I were married. I got married in Nebraska and I was just finishing up. You know, my husband and I were married. I got married in college but I was finishing up.
Speaker 2:But I was taking a group in my fieldwork time to the Nebraska district kind of youth gathering and I don't even remember the theme of that gathering.
Speaker 2:But in the course of that weekend I had two youth kind of come up to me and had a lot of questions about sexual preferences and even behavior and I was like wow, first of all, thank you, I am honored that you even trust me to come and like talk about this.
Speaker 2:But at the same time I felt like very ill prepared, even though I had done some work in school and kind of had these conversations. I was like, wow, this is if I'm really going to like lean into these really intimate places with people like I've got some work to do. And especially for those of us in youth ministry, we spend the majority of our work working not only with students but their parents and families before, during and after puberty and all of that very kind of season of a lot of questioning, as you eloquently said, our identity and really wrestling through that in so many different ways. And so I just felt like, if I was going to walk with youth and adults, well, that I needed to do some work. So that's what really led me into like really kind of diving in and kind of being focused on it and being able to kind of speak from a place of love and grace and truth.
Speaker 1:Do you think and this wasn't actually on the list of questions I asked, so I hope it's okay but has this topic elevated as you look at youth pastors, dces, et cetera? I think the answer is yes because of social media, the exposure to immorality in the online space, the rise in pornography usage, et cetera. Has this even in your 25 years? Has this topic even become more necessary to become and I don't like using the word expert on, but at least proficient at having a Jesus-centered conversation on? Talk about that a little bit, charissa.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I'm going to share some stats here in a little bit that will kind of speak to that very thing. But, kind of like I said, I had that conversation almost 25 years ago but the conversation is bigger. That was kind of an individual conversation. Now we're having conversations more in the corporate space, right, in kind of an individual conversation. Now we're having conversations more in the corporate space, right In terms of how we address it and I think even the nuance of how we address it.
Speaker 2:It's not just a one and done conversation. It needs to be an ongoing kind of conversation about how we lean in and discuss things. And I always want to say it's a conversation, not a presentation. And I always want to say it's a conversation, not a presentation because you are dealing with individual people who are created by God, right, and they need to see themselves in that space.
Speaker 2:And when we talked in our last podcast, I talked a lot about baptismal identity and being fully known and fully loved. When we are sitting with somebody in that space, we need to be Jesus in that space that they feel fully known and fully loved. When we are sitting with somebody in that space, we need to be Jesus in that space that they feel fully known and fully loved in those kind of conversations, and so we can't assume everybody has even the same language. There's a lot of conversation about how we even speak, about these things, and so I think it's really important for, as you said, for us to, if we're going to have a space in that conversation, we need to do some education of ourselves and the culture so that we can speak into it in a way that people are willing to listen and to give us and honor us with those conversations with those conversations, so it's so good.
Speaker 1:I'd love for you to speak to now, parents and grandparents who one think, well, I had the talk right and I had one and done with my kid or grandkid, just don't do it. Don't be whatever you know, be who God made you. You know that kind of thing. There's a kind of a gruffness, or maybe an aloofness, or maybe even an anger, you know, because so many things in our culture become so politicized, right, lgbtq plus. Well, if you're in that, you're obviously a Democrat. I don't. I'm not a Democrat. You know this kind of thing. And we get so far stretched, I think, from the grassroots of real life, especially with the next gen, a lot of the pressures that that they have. So, to that audience, what would people be surprised to know about Generation Z as it relates to human sexuality?
Speaker 2:Well, and I love that you said that too, because I think even the way generations talk about sex is very different, and part of it's because we only know what we have right, like maybe what we experienced or the kind of conversation that we had. And so I'm going to talk about that a little bit later when I kind of talk about some tips about how to have those healthy conversations. But here's some stats, okay. So for those watching online, I apologize. I'm picking up a piece of paper to look at a lot of stats.
Speaker 2:I don't want to mess them up, right, but here's one that I think is very interesting and intriguing is that teens are actually having less sex, they're less sexually active than their previous generations, and that might be shocking. I think when, tim, when you and I were kind of growing up there, there was this feeling in school like everybody's doing it. Well, no, not everybody's doing it, not everybody's Kung Fu fighting right, like the idea that actually we're seeing that percentage change In fact, idea that actually we're seeing that percentage change. In fact, between 1991 and 2021, the percentage of high schoolers that have never, never, engaged in sexual intercourse increased from 45.9% to 70%. That's huge. That's a huge jump right. The greatest improvement by any group in that they were looking at gender, they were looking at ethnicity and things like that. Actually, it was black male teens. Their numbers improved the most during that time period. Also, teen births declined by 78 percent during that time and we just see that teens are actually delaying sexual activity more and more as different education opportunities are happening in their schools and things like that. However, I wanna share some of the other side of the stats, and you kind of brought it up in terms of pornography and, honestly, I'm hoping that I can give you a link that maybe you can give to your listeners on your site, because I have this wonderful, amazing infographic that really lays this out. This is from an organization that's doing some really great work in this area called Fight the New Drug, and so I'm going to give you the link to it. But I'm going to share some of those stats on pornography, and I think this is eye opening for that generation in terms of why they need to be speaking into these spaces, especially in relationship to pornography. And then we'll get to the LGBTQ stats that you were kind of alluding to as well.
Speaker 2:93% of boys and 62% of girls are exposed to internet pornography before the age of 18. So while they are prolonging and waiting to have sex, more of them are being exposed to it. So we're going to talk about the confusing duality of that a little bit. The average age of first exposure is 11. And that research was done just a couple of years ago. Actually, we're seeing that that is trending downward. That actually the latest figure I kind of heard. Maybe that average age is closer to eight. That's terrifying, right. Eight years old, that's a second grader. And when we think about a second grader, what they know about the world, what they know about their bodies. They haven't even hit puberty and yet they're being exposed to this online. 70% of boys have spent more than 30 minutes watching pornography, and more than half of them have done that more than 10 times. So they're watching for 30 minutes and more than half of them have done that at least 10 times. Now here's another interesting fact that gender gap is closing 23% of girls have spent more than 30 minutes online and, again, more than half of them have done that on more than one occasion. So what we're seeing is it's happening at a younger age, it's happening to a larger group, it's happening at a younger age, it's happening to a larger group, it's happening at greater frequency, and that male-female gap is really narrowing.
Speaker 2:And we know that pornography is extremely addictive. In fact, the brain research is showing that it has the same addictive effects as cocaine and even hard drugs, and so that addictive nature to pornography is really difficult, and I actually say that I think it's probably one of the worst addictions to fight, because once it's in there, I can't get it out right Like it's a very difficult one. And we also know that pornography has this way of rewiring our brain and creating these body mind connections that are really damaging to our human sexuality, especially when we get into marital relationships as well. We're seeing a huge increase and I'm going to use a word that maybe is going to shock some people but we're seeing a huge increase in erectile dysfunction in 2030 and 40 year old males because they have been so wired toward pornography so that when they're actually engaging in a relationship, hopefully with their spouse, their inability to engage is really difficult because they've created a mind body connection that has been distorted.
Speaker 2:It is incredible the stats on that sheet that I was just showing you as well is that every second, every single second, $3,000 is being spent on pornography online Every single second. That's incredible and, like I said, I'm going to share these stats with you and so you can see them even more. The number one day, the least popular day to view porn, is coming up. It's Thanksgiving, but the sad reality is the most viewed porn day of the week is Sunday. There's a lot there. Some other stats in terms of LGBTQ that I think is Can we pause?
Speaker 1:Can we pause just a second before we get into LGBTQ conversations? A lot of the pornography industry if we've got a conscience is driven by the sex trade industry. Correct, and I don't think we want to consider that much. Right, we want to disassociate. We don't realize this is the precious young lady, precious young man or older lady, older man, it doesn't matter but who are probably being forced into these acts against their will, for money. You are fueling and I'm sorry to get pointed on this, but if you don't want the boundaries, if you don't want accountability, if you just want to do whatever it is you do and think it's a victimless act, it is pure evil that you need to ask for help against.
Speaker 1:I'm a part of Not In Our City, which is a Phoenix movement. It's a Christian church, all sorts of pastors along with government leaders coming together. I was at a Gilbert Declaration Day. This is where we live. I went to a Mesa we have a church in Mesa as well a Mesa Declaration Day to say we're going to do everything between government and the faith community to say not in our city. This cannot happen here. We've hosted the Super Bowl here and you would not believe the amount of money that, when you host a Super Bowl, flow into your city connected to the sex trade industry. It is absolutely disgusting, evil, darkest of dark that you can possibly imagine. And so this is just a warning, and there may be pastors that are listening to this.
Speaker 1:You are not immune. Who is your accountability friend? I'm going to shout out to Zach Zender we talk all the time. You've got to have a buddy that we check in with and tools. My favorite app that me and my family are on is called Accountable To you. Accountable To you If you need help. It's a wonderful app that you and my family are on is called Accountable To you. Accountable To you if you need help. It's a wonderful app that you put on your phone, all of your devices. It gives reports and you get to name an accountability friend who gets that report. And you don't want to have that conversation. So I think your conscience should be appropriately made guilty and there's an appropriate use of shame as well in this conversation. Shame on you for fueling the sex trade industry by not having an accountable conversation.
Speaker 1:This is all saturated, by the way, in the law. This is strong law. By the way, this is highly saturated in the identity that Jesus has given to you. You are forgiven, you are loved, and now you are and this is the Apostle Paul your body. When he talks about the temple of the Holy Spirit, he's talking about sexual immorality, right To the church there in Corinth. So this is a big deal. You are not your own. Your body has been bought with the price of Christ's blood and you no longer live. Christ lives within you, and shall we take the body that has been? This is what the Apostle Paul, the argument he makes a body that has been sanctified by the blood of Jesus and connected to a prostitute, connected to somebody who's satisfying our wild fantasies online. Far be it for the Christian to have any kind of connection to that dark industry. So it's saturated in grace.
Speaker 1:We're in other podcasts where the gospel is not the diving board. The gospel is the pool. Now we're swimming in this gospel pool and we're caring for one another. We need one another and accountability in grace needs to be the starting point for those who are struggling. So thank you for allowing me to just share a little bit from the heart there. This is a major issue and it's dampening. What does Satan want to do? He wants to put shame and guilt upon you. Who are you to actually talk about? The light and love of Jesus? If only they knew what you were doing. So it's hampering our gospel witness and the days are far too short for us to have it hamper it any longer. So short little homily done, charissa.
Speaker 2:Take it to the next step. I'm going to jump on that actually though, Tim, because that's perfect Because when we look in Genesis right, they were naked and not ashamed.
Speaker 2:They walked in the garden with God Like they were truly the image bearers of Christ.
Speaker 2:And when sin came into the world immediately again, it says their eyes were opened and they saw that they were naked and they were ashamed and they wanted to cover themselves, they wanted to hide, they no longer looked at each other as this beautiful image bearer of Christ.
Speaker 2:Now they're looking at each other from a sinful lens of oh right, and so there is a lot of shame, unfortunately, around this beautiful gift that God gave us because of sin, and so we do need to kind of speak out on that. And what's incredibly sad is that we are seeing that 15% of the internet is pornography sites, and that's sad and a statistic in itself. And, like you said, like when we were growing up, you had to go to a store, there were laws and rules about how far they had to be from communities, churches, schools, and now your community. Like, when they go to prosecute it, they can't because this is your community, right? Like your cell phone, this miniature supercomputer, is now your community, and so the laws that used to protect really are struggling in this new kind of world where you have access no matter where you are in the world.
Speaker 1:Essentially, Thank you. So let's talk, and this is a very sensitive topic. There there are, I would say, venture to guess if your congregation is of any kind of size, you know, 100 plus, etc. You have someone in your community who is walking through the LGBTQ story, the trans story, today. This is very, very prevalent today and we must approach this conversation with love and grace and care in the midst of confusion. So, grace and care in the midst of confusion, so talk to us. Even data around the LGBTQ plus conversation today.
Speaker 2:Let me share the stats, and this is why it's so important for us to be educated and to think about the space. One in five Gen Z adults from the age of 18 to 26 identifies LGBTQ plus, based on a Gallup poll from 2023. One in 10 millennials from the age of 27 to 42, 5% of Gen X, 2% of baby boomers and 1% of silent generation. So when you listen to those stats, what you are hearing and seeing is that it is doubling each generation, right, like each kind of generation gap, and so that's incredible, and actually, if the current trends continue, it's likely that the proportion of LGBTQ plus identifiers will exceed 10% of all US adults in the next three decades.
Speaker 2:And so, as you said, it is very much something that each one of us has maybe a friend, a family member, somebody in our community, somebody we work with, somebody we go to school with that is identifying as LGBTQ, and so how we lean into that discussion, how we love and fully know them and fully see them and have these opportunities for these conversations is really important. Have these opportunities for these conversations is really important, and what we're seeing, especially in the data, is that bisexual adults make up the largest population of LGBTQ, especially in Gen Z, millennial and Gen X, and women are actually twice as likely to actually identify as LGBTQ. And so those are some of those interesting facts that we're seeing from this Gallup poll, as they have kind of leaned in a little bit to the research, especially in this area.
Speaker 1:Sharisa, do you have any hypothesis, or do others have hypothesis, why women are more? I have some thoughts, but why are they more prone to be identifying in that community?
Speaker 2:Well, so I'd love to hear your thoughts first. What do?
Speaker 1:you think Okay, I think you asked me to get into gender. That's okay, I think women have a higher propensity toward agreeableness. And as the culture goes a certain way, and the well, okay. Now, now I'm orienting my thoughts around my three teenagers.
Speaker 2:Same same. I got five girls, so yeah, I get it.
Speaker 1:Right. When puberty hits the brain chemically, especially for young girls, the brain chemically, especially for young girls, body change, everything is changing radically and the need to find your people becomes all the more intense. But girls can be, I don say to find a group of people that you can identify with, who are maybe on the margins, who have arms wide open to whatever your choice may be, and and there you find your idea. I'm kind of rambling a little bit, but I think it has to do with agreeable, agreeableness in young girls trying to find, trying to find their way and and OK, well, I got to stop here and young men and maybe a loss of chivalry, and then maybe it's not a loss but a dampening of chivalry and care and wanting to.
Speaker 1:Because I can think of when I was young in high school, a lot of my best friends were young ladies, right, and we weren't dating. But I think even that gender gap has widened as more time for young men is spent not maybe on a phone with a girl trying to figure out how to connect with someone of the opposite sex. But I'm with my buddies playing video games and I'm maybe not in my. My friend group may not include both boys and and young girls. So, yeah, that's. That's some general, general thoughts. What are, what are your more well-documented youth leader thoughts, charissa? Why is it that girls are more prone to toward this lifestyle choice?
Speaker 2:So I think I think you hit on one there and correct me.
Speaker 1:I could be like radically off. I'm just a pastor, yeah.
Speaker 2:So here's the thing. Like, there's not a cookie cutter approach to it, right, like not everybody just says. This is why I will speak from individual conversations that I've had. So, as I've had those individual conversations, here's the things that rise to the surface. So hear me, this is not a stat. These are just personal conversations, personal safety, and that's terrifying. For them to sit there and say that they would rather identify as being bisexual or lesbian because they feel safer with other females and by identifying in with that group, then that means that they are quote unquote, left alone by the other gender.
Speaker 2:As you said, they're going through a really challenging time growing, and again, we just talked about all those stats about pornography. So if young men have treated them poorly or have spoken to them in this time, this very forming time of identity and things like that that have turned them off, then of course they're going to go to those that they find that love and care for them. And here's the thing and this is where it gets really tricky, right, because remember how I said, they're putting off sexual practice. Many of them, even though they identify, have never actually even practiced the sexual act they identify because it's as you said, it's maybe the group that has met them with open and loving arms. But the other thing that we're seeing, especially around sexuality and the way that this generation is speaking about it, is more about attachment and attraction. Okay, so those are two very different things to them. It's not necessarily sexual or morality, it is about attachment and attraction, and so people are going to find attractive qualities, potentially in both genders. But what is attractive to males? What's attractive to females, especially in this time where it's so challenging, I think, especially as we see that rise in females is, hey, I don't get cat called, I don't I feel maybe safer, I feel seen, I feel this opportunity to be with people, and I watch girls online right now. I think I talked about this, maybe even the last time we talked, but I see girls being like incredibly, they can be incredibly mean, as you said, but I also see a lot of them being incredibly supportive and loving and kind and being like hey, girl, you look great and things like that, and so if they're feeling more built up and loved by a different gender, then they're going to probably lean into that and they will gladly accept what that maybe looks like for them as they're walking through that, because they they feel and have sense that maybe this is where I belong and so, again, I think it creates that as they're trying to figure these things out.
Speaker 2:All these other things are coming out of messages, pornography, the way in which we talk about it, and I feel it's incredibly sad because I feel like we have given this generation this whole like suitcase of things for them to figure out, with no coping skills, no life experience, not a lot of great mentors, and we've said, hey, you need to carry this and unpack it for yourself, and I think we've done a bad job as adults doing that to this generation, and if we are not walking beside them and having these conversations, then we're just adding to that incredible load of them having to pick through this luggage and say what fits, what doesn't, what fits what doesn't, because we're not walking with them in it, and I think that that's it's incredibly sad and it's why I think so much it's important for us to speak into to these various topics and especially to that individual person. Right, like again, it's not a cookie cutter approach. It is very individualistic in the way that we speak about these things.
Speaker 1:That's so good. Would you speak to someone who's like my son? I have a sophomore son. He's a football player, he's a great kid, he's working it out, you know, potentially wants to go into ministry. We'll see where the Lord kind of leads him, but not in a, not in a relationship. It has no real desire, but he wants to grow Like. How do you disciple your young men to grow in connecting with loving, caring for and protecting young, young girls, princesses in the kingdom of God? How do you, how do you kind of help them?
Speaker 2:So we've got to talk, we've got to. We've got to change our language too, right? Like I think, when we were growing up, it was very much the purity culture, sexual purity, true love, weights, we had the rings, we had all the things. Right, we need to change the language from sexual purity, which is more about behavior modification and getting your kid to the altar not having had sex. If that's your end goal, then we're already failing them. Right, our goal needs to be more about sexual integrity.
Speaker 2:Right, going back to the garden that we look at our brothers and sisters from a sexual integrity place that says this is a creation and an image bearer of Christ, and I'm going to love and honor this person that is standing in front of me. So that sexual integrity means that I have to grow in how not only I show up in that space, but how I honor those around me. And integrity is a very important word, right, because integrity is all about doing the right thing, even when no one is watching. So I'm going to double down on that in this way. Right, we talked about how they're delaying sex, but I just shared all those statistics of how much they are engaged in pornography. So is that sexual integrity Like. So they're winning the goal of prolonging sexual activity, but they're engaging in sexual activity right Because of the fact that they are exposed.
Speaker 2:They're seeking it out, and so when we talk about sexual integrity, it's a much more integrated, it's much more holistic in the way that we teach them to not only value themselves but to value those around them and to stand up for each other.
Speaker 2:And again, going back to what we just talked about, I think people see other people standing up for them and that's attractive, like it's attractive to see somebody stand up for you and say you're not going to speak to them that way. They're amazing, they're beautiful. That's attractive to find somebody that sees that in you and is going to stand up for you. So, when he's talking about wanting to grow in that, how do I grow in? How I show up in that space and how I show up for others in that space and I think it's incredibly important in as we talk about having the talk and all those different things, because there's some there's some big myths around sexuality and I think that's one of those ones is like oh well, great, they're not having sex, yeah, but we have a bigger epidemic happening behind the scenes, as you've already kind of pointed out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's really helpful. I'm away from sexual purity and towards sexual integrity. I want to be about that, and I mean Jesus. We should talk about Jesus. Jesus enters into a purity, pharisaical culture where it's about the external doing. I think of the woman caught in adultery. Where's the man in that whole story? Right, but she's caught and Jesus doesn't condemn, he raises her up, he forgives her and invites her to leave her life of sin. And then sin is always before us, because Jesus said in Sermon on the Mount if you've looked at a woman with lust in your heart or a man with lust in your heart, you've already committed adultery. And so, yeah, moving toward forgiveness and grace and the holistic approach on sexual integrity, rather than just get to the altar without having had sex, I 100% agree. That's a discipleship. That's a discipleship approach rather than a legalistic. That's a Jesus-centered, gospel-centered, gospel, pool-oriented approach rather than a legalistic approach. Anything more to say, as you hear me kind of bring up a couple of scripture stories there, sharisa.
Speaker 2:No, so one of my favorite scripture stories. So let me, let me do a myth and then I'll lead into a scripture story here. Right, let's go. So one of the myths that I think people have around sex, or maybe generationally right, is that there are no. There's no levels or bases Right Like when we were growing up first base, second base, third base and so there was always this conversation, or that there were levels right, like this idea. In 1998, there was a very big conversation, and hear me when I say this is not political, okay, but Bill Clinton got on TV right and said I did not have sexual relations with that woman.
Speaker 1:I did not have sexual relations.
Speaker 2:Oh, get it Tim.
Speaker 1:That shaped me. In high school I did not have sexual relations.
Speaker 2:It was a shaping time. Right, it was a shaping time because what it did is it began a nationwide discussion of what counted right, of what counted in terms of sexual relationship. And it's the same question that you and I have probably gotten in ministry many times, which is how far is too far? What's the line? Like what? Like, what can I do? What can I do? And I always tell youth it's the wrong question, it is the wrong question.
Speaker 2:It's like the lawyer trying to justify himself before God in the good Samaritan story who is my neighbor? Right? And we learned through that story that God says your neighbor is anybody that I put in your path. Right, Anybody that is in your path is your neighbor. And that is so incredibly important for us, even as we have these kinds of conversations that anybody that God puts in your path is your neighbor.
Speaker 2:Act accordingly Right, love accordingly, treat with integrity, treat with all those things, and I think it's that same thing. Sexuality is a gift from God and he designs it and he creates it and we need to treat it with that level of integrity. So there isn't levels, there isn't bases, right, and in fact, as we have leaned more into the sexuality conversation, those things that we used to make as bases are the actual sexual acts of different people, and so this idea that that any of them are unequal or more than or less than. We got to throw that myth out, that that's a big myth that we got to get rid of um in in the midst of that, and I think that's an important one.
Speaker 1:And you had a Bible story. Were you going to say a Bible story? The Good Samaritan, oh the Good Samaritan, yeah the Good.
Speaker 2:Samaritan, and I think sometimes especially when it comes around sex.
Speaker 2:We want to get legalistic about it, we want to justify ourselves. That's what the lawyer was trying to do, like he knew loving God and loving the people was the law right. But he was trying to justify himself. He was trying to narrow the line. Okay, well, jesus, yes, like stuff, he was trying to narrow the line. Okay, well, jesus, yes, like you say that. But he knows, as a lawyer, there's no way he can do that.
Speaker 2:Even in his profession he sees that nobody is being able to keep the law, no matter how much they try to. So he's trying to narrow the focus, and that's what I see a lot of people do sometimes is like, well, if we just narrow the focus, then we can justify ourselves, and I see this even from people that are heterosexual. Well, at least I don't do A, b, c and D. Well, when did we start splitting up sin and saying, well, your sin is worse than mine? And this is where that sexual integrity piece comes in, because then again we all fall short. Right, we all fall short in the midst of that, and we see that again directly from the garden in that. And so I think how we walk in sexual integrity, how we view our neighbor is incredibly important in the midst of that.
Speaker 1:Couldn't agree more, and sorry for not listening as well as I should. Gee whiz.
Speaker 1:No, you're good I don't know what I was thinking. That's obviously a Bible story, tim, what's? But I was thinking that's obviously a Bible story, tim. What's wrong with you? Anyway, you're awesome. Let's get into really the second half of this podcast. Let's get into real practical ways that people can engage in these discussions that sound like Jesus, that point people to Jesus, that lift up the next gen, that lead with humility and love and care and listening well, as I just didn't do as well. So, yeah, what are the top 10 tips or things to remember as you engage in this discussion Can?
Speaker 2:I do a couple things before that.
Speaker 1:You can, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I want to say that the brain. A lot of people think that the brain is the least important part of sex and it actually we're finding out is the most important. And so again, we're making these brain mind things. And the other thing, just from a national perspective, I think a lot of people assume sex education in schools that all schools have an abstinence kind of only, or an absence education portion in their school. The sad reality is only 39 states do. But here's the thing I love that people are engaged in health education and people are talking about it in school, but you need to be the person having that conversation first, and so we cannot depend on even our schools to have the same narrative, and we see that across the board. There's not a national curriculum that everybody agrees on. So no matter where you are in the nation, you probably know that and of those 39 states, only 29 make it the number one thing that they kind of put the most like hey, here's the number one way to evolve to kind of avoid sexual transmitted infections, std like. So only 29 states out of 50. And so that's also what you are battling in terms of having really good conversations about it. So I'll get into those 10 tips now, right? So you kind of already said it. We got to start with God, right. We got to start with God that he loves them, that it's a foundational that he's made you that baptismal identity, because we know that our response, that our individual response to follow God's love is out of the love that he has first shown us. And so if we want people to walk in integrity and to follow and chase after Jesus, we got to start there, right. We've got to make sure that they know that they're fully known and fully loved by God, and that's a big one. Number two is that sexual integrity versus sexual purity, and purity is not a bad thing. I don't want to say that that's a bad thing, but I just I think integrity is a much better word when we're talking about the holistic nature of our mind, body and spirit as we engage in conversations and even the experience of sexual relations and whether we're, whether it's pornography or or we're engaging in it as people, and I think that's really really important. Number three embrace the awkwardness, and I think that's really really important. Number three embrace the awkwardness, and I think this is the hardest piece for some people is to embrace the awkwardness of the conversation. I have to say my mom did an incredible job. Shout out to my mom. She did a great job, not only on that very first conversation, but opening the door for us to have other conversations. But this is what I'm going to ask you, as parents and leaders, to do to prepare yourself to embrace the awkward right, because you know the questions are going to come. But here's some things for you to already have processed before they come.
Speaker 2:One what did I get right in my own sexual development questioning? I did it. However you want to say it. Preferences like again, the language is varied out there, right? So what did you get right? What did you get wrong? That's a tough one, right? Like we've got to say like, hey, here's maybe some ways that I got burned on that situation, right?
Speaker 2:Number three what was missing? What did I not know that I found out later and would have been really helpful for me to know sooner in that. And then, what was confused? Right? Like so much at this time, kids start going to their peers or online and we know that can be a very confusing place. And I don't know about you, tim, but there were things that I heard about sex when I was in junior high and middle school and high school that I was like that is not true. Like as I got older, right, it was a confusing message or it was just completely inaccurate. And so many of our kids, if they don't get the answers from us, they're going to go to peers and online, and we already just talked about how dangerous that is to go searching out maybe some of those answers online.
Speaker 1:Number four is this searching out maybe some of those answers online. Number four is this those questions like if you are listening and you're not taking notes. This is a note, this is note time. Teresa just took us to school. You just schooled us what I got right and what I got wrong, what's missing and what was confusing or what is confusing for your child today. Such great questions to open up Jesus-centered conversations. I'm listening, Note taken. All right, Sharisa, keep going.
Speaker 2:Point number four yeah, number four is really critical that no topic is off limits. And again, I understand what I'm asking you to do. Believe me, I've been there. Right, the idea that no topic is off limits, that as they come to you with their questions, you need to be affirming, caring, confident, outwardly, inwardly, praying for the spirit to guide your words and things like that, or just to come from a place of I'm just listening. I don't need the answers, just tell me what's going on, right, because if you start to make a topic off limits, then they will stop coming to you and and you need to be the person that they most feel comfortable coming to, because you love them, you created them, especially like your young people, in your own home, and so if they can't come to you, then they are going to go somewhere else and and you don't get to control that at that point. So you have to be willing to create those safe spaces that say no topic is off limits.
Speaker 2:Now I will just say, tim, you were talking about your son. I have five daughters. The most awkward conversations are always in the car, leaving church from youth and all of a sudden one of my kids will hit me with one. I'm like, wow, okay, I can't go anywhere, I'm driving, it's time to have a conversation, right. But creating this space for those conversations to happen and even just saying, hey, maybe I don't understand that, like, let's go figure that out together, I think that's a really big, important one.
Speaker 1:I'm laughing because I'm like my mind goes to a potential car conversation, like if my son were to say I don't think this would ever happen and I don't know if he's ever going to listen to this podcast. But, kai, if you ever came to me and said, you know, dad, tell me about the link between pornography and erectile dysfunction, that would get my attention. Let's talk about it. So, sud, if you're listening, I'd love to have that conversation and connected to the brain and connected to the brain for real.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and I could go down a whole other tangent on that research, Tim, you know me like I'm like there is so much there. In fact, I'm going to give you a book here in a minute that will definitely, like definitely, people are going to want to read and lean into on that one.
Speaker 1:Well, this, is something that's so obvious. Everybody watches TV and we see commercials like those commercials were not around. A generation or two ago, that didn't exist. So yeah, you're going to around, around ED, around erectile dysfunction, et cetera. So keep, keep going. We'll get to the resources here.
Speaker 2:Point number five so number five is cultivate a passion for both truth and grace right. This means that as we study God's word, we want to learn to love what it reveals right. We want to learn what God reveals in his holy word and also understand that sometimes God shares things in scripture that he doesn't necessarily condone, but he's just sharing the reality of what was happening at the time. But being committed to following God and chasing after grace and forgiveness means that that's going to call us to show up in those places where we are loving our neighbor and everybody that comes across our path. But we're also going to understand God's bigger story about how he's designed us and what he wants for his creation. And so when we learn to cultivate that as a family that walks with God, it's going to help in some of those kind of conversations. As you lean into those Number six, you've got to have discussions about shame and forgiveness, and I say this because at some point in time we share that big statistic right about pornography. They're in all likelihood you were going to find out, either because they're going to come tell you, or you're going to find out because maybe you have an app or or something following them on their phone or you're just going to walk in that you might find your young person viewing pornography or engaging in some sort of sexual behavior that you're like, wait a minute, like what, what's going on here? And so we have to lean into those conversations about shame and grace.
Speaker 2:But here's the other reason that I think is really critical. It is a very sad statistic that one in five of our young people have been sexually assaulted, one in five in some form or fashion. Right, and how people decide like we don't get to decide what trauma is for somebody Somebody's body does Right. And so, whether it's something that's been said, something that's been done, we have seen a generation feel like, in some ways, that even their own first experiences have been stolen from them. Own first experiences have been stolen from them. And so as we talk and lean into conversations about sexuality, we have to know that statistic and know that for some people they might not have wanted that to come when it came. And so how we phrase things, how we talk about things, is really important. And leaning into that places where they feel broken, incredibly broken, and somebody has done something, and so, and what we learn from that is they carry a lot of shame from that If I wouldn't have worn that clothing, right? If, for some of our young ladies, if I didn't develop sooner than my peers did, right, all these different nuanced things, and I'm not just talking females. There's a lot of male sexual abuse too. It's actually one of the rising things, as you said about sexual exploitation. It's, it's so. It's so incredibly sad, the statistics that we're seeing around this.
Speaker 2:But shame and forgiveness need to be there, right, because, again, as you said, satan wants to kill, steal and destroy and he wants us to feel less than and that God couldn't love us and that God couldn't restore this in us, and we need to combat that message very clearly. In regard to this, number seven is one we haven't really talked about but needs to be talked about is that we need to talk about singleness as much as we talk about marriage, because we can tend to sometimes idealize marriage and sexuality and having families, right. But what we learned from scripture, as we said, is that both marriage and singleness are a calling and, as we are seeing that more and more people like the national average of being married is now 27, getting closer to 30. That tells you that more than a third of someone's life is spent in singleness. So if we're not speaking into this beautiful calling of being single and what God calls for us in those places whether up to marriage or through our lifetime, especially in that sexual integrity conversation If we're not having that holistic conversation and lifting up singleness, then again we are also failing people, because not everybody is called to marriage, and I think we need to talk about it in those terms too, not like when you get married, but like if God calls you to marriage.
Speaker 2:Right, like we even need to change our language about that, sometimes in the church as well, because we have so many people in our congregation that are sitting in this gap of like well, does this conversation even matter to me because of this? And it absolutely does. Right, it absolutely does.
Speaker 1:Hey, let's pause on that just real quick. I think the church is trying to figure out how to reach that population right now more than ever and I don't know that we're running enough tests, I don't know that we're setting up enough space we're like actively as a congregation trying to engage that young adult, married, early married, but also single community, and what are their primary felt needs and they're a part of, they want to be a part of a multigenerational expression. I'm pretty sure of that. But they also have unique challenges in that time. College to just the adulting season is just taking a lot longer right now, is just taking a lot longer right now. And so, yeah, I have a lot of kind of thinking collectively for the church in the US and really in the West, as these stats are growing. Like this is kind of a new thing for us.
Speaker 1:Charissa, you know, like we used to a generation ago, my grandma got married at 16. My grandpa was 19. Now I'm not saying you should get married at 16, but like that was not like crazy strange you know, and the average age of marriage. I got married at 22. And so that gap, that elongated gap between getting the growing up season, it's widened now and we're trying and I guess my plea would just be be sympathetic to, to speaking in a sensitive way to that group as you're talking about, and also run tests to develop community both for that generation and then across that generation, that they would not be isolated, they would see the church with open arms for them in that elongated period of singleness. So anything more there, sharisa.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I have two older daughters too, so it is such a challenge, because the other piece is also sometimes about their identity, is like why haven't I gotten married, like why haven't I found my person?
Speaker 2:And so that is also incredibly challenging to them as well, because again is like is anybody ever going to love me? And so sometimes we can chase after attachments Remember how I said attachment and attraction we can chase after some attachments that we actually wouldn't. That would not be healthy for us, and so we have to lean into that space with them and be like hey, you know God, do you trust that God has your best in mind? And if, again, if you're chasing after God and you're like I trust that he has my best in mind, then you remember this that rejection is God's protection and redirection, and it just might not be your time. It just might not be your time, and that's okay, and maybe God is calling you to a life of singleness. So how do we also love and support people in those places? And I think that's just really incredible.
Speaker 1:You're an awesome communicator. I love listening to you talk. You're so well read I don't know the words that just rolled off your tongue. You know about rejection. That was like wow. I've never heard life any, any phrase like that was just next level. So I'm glad God made you the way he did and your your curiosity for life. It's. It's so compelling. All right, final three. I'm taking notes. Here we go.
Speaker 2:All right, here we go. Who beats what right? Who beats what right? The fact that you matter, the who matters right, like we know, like as kids get older, their circles change, they start to care about. You know, parents always want the detail, like for the retreat, like where are we going? What's the cost? All those things they, the teens, want to know who's going. Who begins to really matter at this age and stage and the idea that you as parents still incredibly matter. And so, again, conversation, not presentation. The who matters in the midst of that Right.
Speaker 1:Amen, and I think in because I have three high schoolers right now. I'm working past the presumption that parenting, especially around this topic, concludes upon graduation from high school.
Speaker 2:You're in a slightly different season.
Speaker 1:I'm anticipating, like another decade or so of parenting, especially around sexual integrity rather than kind of there once they go to college. This is kind of done. Am I right in thinking that?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Absolutely, because I mean I sent one through college and the conversations that I had were vastly different than I had when they were in high school and vastly different than the conversations I'm having with my middle schooler. And so, yes, it is an ongoing conversation and, honestly, going back to scripture, iron sharpens iron, right. We're going to get better as we have these conversations in the midst of it and really what we're doing is letting somebody we're engaging in intimacy, like into me. I see right, like we know that acronym, like that idea that as we engage in intimacy and we grow in those places, that we get better for it. Number nine is a tool that I use in youth ministry that I think is highly effective. I call it the funnel approach, right, and we see that God does this in scripture too. So, first of all, when you want to start to maybe ask your kids some questions, let them be the expert, like on their school and community. Like, hey, how many teens do you think, or what is their feeling about this subject or that? Right, let the teen be the expert on their school. That's a really cool thing. They get to kind of tell you what they're seeing and hearing, then funnel it down, then the next place you're going to go is well, what are your closest friends? Or you know, you can even name people or like well, what is your inner circle? Kind of think about it, right. So you're funneling down to think about it, right, so you're funneling down. And here's why that question is really important, because those are the people that your kids are spending the most time with, and what we know is that the five closest people to somebody have the most influence, right. And so if they are saying, well, this person, this person, this person, that's going to give you a good indication of what they're listening to and what they are being motivated or challenged by, and those can be great things or those can be not great things. I always tell my confirmands, like, you better have some Christians in that circle, right, and if you don't like, we need to maybe have a conversation about that. So we kind of talk about those five.
Speaker 2:And then it's the question of well, what do you think about that? And we see Jesus doing this, right, this model, when he's with the disciples and he asked a really important question who do you say, I am Right. But before he gets to that question, and Peter answers well, you are the Christ, right, like you know, you're the Lord. He asked him. What do you see people saying? Like he even models this in scripture that first of all, he lets them have the conversation. Well, you're Elijah reborn, you're Moses, you're this, you're that? Okay, great, but who do you say I am. And so, as you do that funnel discussion, you're allowing them to slowly start getting prepared. And it doesn't make it awkward, it's not just like hey, tim, what do you think about this? Like I've allowed you to slowly kind of funnel that down. It's a really great thing to use. It's a tool that's really helpful in youth ministry and just in conversation with people.
Speaker 2:And the last point is this speak early, and often I think parents so many times are worried about being too early in terms of having conversations about sex, but it's actually worse to be too late on this topic, right? And so you don't want to be too late, and so you. And again it goes back to that one talk is not enough. You want to create space for your youth to come. Now I'm not sitting there saying that every single night at dinner we're having a conversation. I don't want to oversaturate or create it to be such a part of the lexicon of your home, right Like. But you want to have these conversations that allow them to just continue to come to you in those spaces and to continue building your own relationship with your, with your, with your kiddos, your teens, the people that you serve in your congregations, and so hopefully that's helpful.
Speaker 1:Charissa, oh my gosh, thank you for spending the time to put together that list. Start with God. He's at the center of it all. Point number two sexual integrity rather than sexual purity. Embrace the awkward, all the questions, what I got right wrong, missing, confused. No topic is off limits as we have these conversations, cultivate a passion for truth and grace. Embrace that there's going to be shame, that's connected to it, but we we bask in the forgiveness of Jesus. Point number seven we've got to have empathy and care, sympathy for a longer period of singleness today and being married, who beats what? Point number eight the funnel approach. Such a good communication handle. And then let's start. Let's start early. Let's have this conversation early, and often early and often so. Some resources if people want to go deeper into this topic best research literature that you would have us go deeper in.
Speaker 2:So the ones that I personally even use in my own home. Cph has a great series on how to talk to kids at different ages and stages and I always think it's a great thing. Like when my kid was starting to be a reader, I was like, hey, read this and then let's talk. Right, so then they could go read it by themselves and not feel awkward or I'm reading it with them or over their shoulder, and it gave them some really opportunities to kind of look and think and have some conversations. There's some good ones. Like I said, I'm going to send you guys this. But the Fight the New Drug it's not a Christian organization, but man are they doing some serious work in terms of fighting pornography? They got some great stats, some wonderful stuff there Non-Lutheran, so I'm going to preface this but Preston Sprinkle is doing some incredible work with the Center for Faith and ChristianSexualitycom.
Speaker 2:We did his curriculum. It's a 12-week curriculum and there issexualitycom. We did his curriculum. It's a 12-week curriculum and there is videos for parents, there's videos for students, there's videos for pastors and even the whole first section is all about establishing the foundation of who they are in God and it's really well done and there's even some conversations about leading into those different topics and even if you don't decide to use the curriculum at your church or things like that, it is an incredible resource for you to just grow in your own personal knowledge and whatever spaces you're leading in, whether it's your vocation of ministry or your vocation in your family. He's done some really good work there.
Speaker 2:There's a book called Closing the Window, ie the window like pornography. That's a really great book. And, as I said, that brain science research. One that I really, really loved is a book called Hooked.
Speaker 2:It's called the brain science of how casual sex affects human development, and when you read that book it's going to just make your mind go and understand, like why we, even even heterosexual couples, struggle, sometimes even with their partner because of things that maybe happened in the past movies they've watched, things that they that came to them, that they maybe didn't want to come to them in terms of things and how those things kind of get hooked in and that brain body connection is so critical. And so just a really good research book on those pieces as well. And finally get in the Bible right, like best research you can do is to get in God's holy word and to just see where he meets you in those places, because what you're going to continue to learn is that God keeps it pretty simple Love him, love others, and let's get about doing that in in how we love and see people and and care about their integrity um as much as as we want to care um and have ours cared for as well.
Speaker 1:So I've done hundreds of podcasts and this is one of my top. I don't know, it's just been amazing and thank you for the work you put in. I rarely recommend to my wife hey, honey, you should listen to my podcast. But this one, honey, if you listen to it, it's not a lot of me so that you hear me all the time you get to hear Charissa today but so practical, so helpful. If people want to connect with you, how can they do so?
Speaker 2:So exciting news, right, tim? So last time we talked you were like how do we connect with you? And I was like I'm not that important. But what's exciting is you also challenged me to go write the book. Right, we talked about writing the book and it's exciting.
Speaker 2:So, I wrote a book, and so not only does the book have a website, but you can find me at TeresaKuntzcom, but I hope your listeners will also go check out. As you know, if you've listened to me the last two times, I'm a very curious individual that loves to ask a lot of questions. So I wrote this book called the 17 Questions of God and the Impact on your Life Today, and it's actually going to be a whole entire journaling series. But you got to start with God and meeting Him in Scripture and seeing some of the questions that he asked in both Old and New Testament times, but they're the same questions that he's asking of you and me today, and so it's available on Amazon.
Speaker 2:I hope people will go check it out. But, yeah, reach out to me. If you go to my website, you can find out how to connect with me. If you want me to come speak at your church, you want me to be on a podcast, if you just want to send me an email and say, hey, I have a really big question, or can you send me that resource? I love connecting with people and helping people out, so great ways that you can do that.
Speaker 1:I just realized I got to send the recommendation for the book and I'm going to be. I'm going to be sending that soon. I'm reading it. I just started it. So good, we got to have you back. I'm late to a meeting right now and, uh, would you send me an email and let's get the third podcast set up to talk about those 17 questions? That would be amazing.
Speaker 1:Amazing. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day. We'll have another awesome guest next week. I don't know if they're going to top Charissa, because it's been pretty legit Next week on American Reformation podcast. Please share, subscribe. You can find us Unite Leadership Collective on YouTube and that helps get the word out. Hopefully we're having Jesus-centered, hope-filled, joy-filled, challenging conversations like this one today. I know I'm better for it. I know, listener, you are as well. We'll see you next week on American Reformation. Thanks, Teresa.
Speaker 2:Thank you guys.