The Tim Ahlman Podcast
The Tim Ahlman Podcast is your go-to resource for inspiring conversations that equip leaders to thrive in every vocation, inside and outside the church. With three primary focuses, this podcast dives deep into:
Leadership: Learn from experts across diverse fields as we explore how their insights can shape and sustain a healthy culture in the local church and beyond. Over 60% of listeners expressed a desire for practical discussions on cultivating thriving environments—and that's exactly what these conversations will deliver.
Learn: Engage in deep theological discussions with scholars who illuminate how Christ is revealed on every page of Scripture. Together, we’ll bridge theology to the realities of a post-Christian America, ensuring practical application for today’s world. This segment aligns closely with the themes of the American Reformation Podcast and resonates with the 60% of you who crave more exploration in this area.
Live: Discover healthy habits that empower leaders in all vocations to become holistically healthy. As followers of Jesus, we’re called to lead not only with faith but also with physical, emotional, and spiritual well-being.
Join Tim Ahlman as we navigate leadership, learning, and living with purpose, so you can lead with strength, wisdom, and a Christ-centered vision.
The Tim Ahlman Podcast
Serving God and Society: Dr. Mueller's Insights on Modern Christianity
Ready to explore the evolving landscape of modern Christianity? Make sure to tune in for our enlightening conversation with Dr. Steve Mueller, Chief Mission Officer at Concordia University in Irvine, California, as he offers valuable insights about the American church's response to a rapidly changing culture. Learn how Concordia University is preparing students to excel in their vocations and become leaders in the secular marketplace, extending the love of Jesus in every corner of society. This is not just about navigating the darkness in the world; it's about being the beacon of light and hope in it.
We also delve into Dr. Mueller's rich career, starting from his days in youth and camp ministry to his current role at Concordia University. Discover the importance of maintaining a connection with parish life, the unique partnership between St Paul's and Concordia, and his takeaways from the recent Lutheran Church Missouri Synod convention. Not to miss, we have also covered some gripping discussions about church politics, the business aspect of the church, and the dynamic relationship between the board of directors and the Concordia University system.
Finally, we bring you valuable perspectives on Generation Z, their incredible desire to make a difference, and the pressures they face in today's world. Listen to how Lewis's writings can open hearts and minds to the gospel and the secret of communicating the gospel truth effectively in the current culture. This conversation is sure to inspire you to foster humility, trust, and unity within your church community. So, are you ready to join us on this journey of faith and leadership?
Hello and welcome to the brand new American Reformation Podcast. We long to see the wider American Christian Church fall more in love with Jesus by learning from the practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication. We want to hear from you, make sure you comment and leave a review, wherever you're watching or listening, to tell us what God is doing in your life or how you feel about today's conversation. Lord, have your way in us. Let's dive in.
Speaker 2:Happy day. Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast, tim Allman. Here I pray, wherever you're taking this in, that the joy of the Lord is your strength and the love and peace and the identity that you have in Christ is fueling you for for mission in the name of the crucified and risen one. His name is Jesus. Today I get the distinct honor and privilege to hang out with Reverend Dr Steve Mueller. He is the chief mission officer. He served at Concordia University in Irvine, california, and knew in that role. He's a professor of theology for many, many years. How many years now have you been at Concordia? 29 years, wow, that's awesome. I just had 10 years in my context here at Christ Greenfield and thank you for your faithful service. He has an MDiv from Concordia Theological Seminary and then a PhD at Durham University in England. He has served at Concordia since again, like you say, 1995. That's fantastic.
Speaker 2:His numerous publications include Called to Believe, teach and Confess and Introduction to Doctrinal Theology. I came out in 2005. Not a Tame God Another book he wrote, not a Tame God, christ and the Writings this is doubling down on your PhD Christ and the Writings of CS Lewis, published by CPH in 2002. He also served as an associate editor on our wonderful Lutheran Study Bible and the general editor in the Reformation Heritage Bible commentary, authoring a volume on Hebrews. We can ooh lots to talk about there. I love the book of Hebrews. He's also written many hymns, including Christ, the Word of God Incarnate, which is in the LSB, the Lutheran service book. He also serves as a called assistant pastor at St Paul's Lutheran Church in Irvine. Thank you so much, dr Mueller, for being on American Reformation today. How you doing, brother? I'm doing great, really good to be with you. So fun, so fun. So let's start out. Standard question how are you praying for Reformation in the American Christian Church?
Speaker 3:Steve, you know we're living in a time rather like the New Testament era. I'm praying that these times the church doesn't get complacent and doesn't view itself as trying to regain its power, but rather that the gospel is at the forefront, that we see this as a time of mission, that we're reaching out. The harvest is ready. There's so much work to do and we need to get about our Lord's Great Commission.
Speaker 2:What I hear as you give that answer love it is. We're not going to live with scarcity. And the kind of ER Woe is me, Woe is us Kind of protection throughout the walls, Purify. You know, I don't hear that from you. I hear abundance and the beauty of being alive in a wild time. I mean, what's our other choice, Steve? I have to say the Lord is at work. We know, as darkness increases, the light increases all the more. I'd much rather live with that sort of posture of hope and joy because we know the end of the story Christ is going to return to renew, redeem, restore all things. But sometimes a church can go down that kind of path, that kind of ER mentality or that protective mentality. You want to speak to that at all, Steve, as we dig in today?
Speaker 3:No, absolutely. And you know I think we got used to being, you know, having a favorite position in society and, frankly, weren't always the most faithful. When things seem easy, when people, you know, when your church grows because you've put up a building and people kind of flock to it, you don't have to get out and do the messy work of ministry as much. You know there's still plenty of challenge inside, but we were always called to be reaching the loss, to be in our communities, to be doing other things, and now we're being forced to it and, frankly, if we're not going to go out and engage people with the gospel, well, you know they're coming at us. They're coming at us Now. They're coming to us sometimes with challenge and hostility, but they're still coming at us. I mean that at least starts a conversation and you know there's a place to begin talking and, yeah, it's hard work sometimes. Amen.
Speaker 3:But this is where God placed us.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, and we both happen to be in the wonderful district in the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod, the Pacific Southwest District and I just think of. I've talked to President Gibson, our district president, a number of times Back in the fifties, I mean, we just planted churches about every square mile, or two or three square miles, and a lot of those, a lot of those churches are no longer exists. The community change? We were reaching mostly Christians and many of them actually Lutherans, transplants from the Midwest. But man, how, how times have changed, especially in our inner inner cities. Right, and are we raising up leaders?
Speaker 2:I know this is what CUI desires to do raise up missionaries and number of different vocations to future pastors and those that are in the secular marketplace to go on mission to make Jesus known, and I think CUI does that so so well. Anything to add toward kind of contextualization with the never changing word of God, specifically in the number of different departments that you get to lead at CUI? This is the mindset that we're trying to put into all of our students, correct? No, absolutely.
Speaker 3:You know, all of our students are being called by God into different vocations and we want them to be excellent at what they do. That's part of our theology, but we also want them to bring their faith into it Because I mean, frankly, you and I, you know, as pastors, there are people who are never going to listen to us. But if there is, you know, an engineer or a mechanic or a nurse, you know that's that's. You know, serving alongside and just carrying out their job well and being a joyful witness to Jesus and talking. When those conversations come up, you know, come up. That's a far more powerful witness than those of us who earn our living from the gospel can sometimes have.
Speaker 2:We this sounds very Lutheran, steve. We need to unearth again the beautiful Doctrine of Vocation Absolutely All different, all different vocations and our homes out and out into the marketplace. Praise be to God. So how did you get into, how did you get into ministry? Tell that story.
Speaker 3:Oh, it's a long story, but you know it started with, I think, parental encouragement. So both my grandfathers were pastors of tiny Midwestern churches, but not my parents. My parents were not in ministry but they always kind of pushed along. That helped in some ways and it hindered in some other ways. Had a couple of good pastors growing up who held church work out in front of people, had a wonderful DCE in high school and then I think probably the most formative was I ended up working for a Lutheran camp at the end of high school and through college and you've got to try on the different roles, ended up in leadership there and you've got to try a bunch of different things, and so it kind of gradually shaped what I was going to do.
Speaker 3:And God is dragging me along. So first, first I was thinking camp ministry or youth ministry and just kept you know people kept chipping away. I says, you know you really have to be a pastor and through that discovered also a love for academics, and so after some time in the pastoral ministry then I was called to Concordia and so it just kind of all flowed where God wanted me to be and you know he's never left me alone. He keeps. He keeps pivoting me to different roles. I've stayed in the same place, but it's been an evolving calling. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So how long were you in the parish? We're a handful of years.
Speaker 3:I was, so I had a parish that I assisted for a year while I was doing my extra graduate work, and then I was called for four years into a parish before coming to Concordia. Yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah, most of the time here I've served as pastoral assistant, or most recently as a called assistant pastor as well, because I think the parish ministry is the front lines and that makes me better at everything else I do. Plus, there's a great need.
Speaker 2:So what does that? What does that look like being full time in kind of academia at CUI but then also serving at St Paul? I'm just curious about that rhythm of staying connected to the local church.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so it's a it's a part time call and it used to be a little more extensive when I became chief mission officer. We kind of backed it down a little bit to make it possible. But what it really is is I've got a grounding in parish life and it's interesting the way these two balance each other out. Where, you know, sometimes when things are really tough at the university, you know, and you know we all go through seasons. There have been a few times where I walked in on a Sunday morning and just kind of breathe a sigh of relief because it's, you know, all right.
Speaker 3:I can get about the normal work of of gospel and, you know, when things are a little trickier in the parish, I've got my you know my Monday through Friday calling as well. They dovetail together in fact so well that yesterday so St Paul's has been worshiping in a gym for about a decade. Yesterday they they moved into a new home which is at Concordia's new campus. We developed it as kind of a mutual ministry where we're developing the space together. So they use it for off hours use and we'll use it for chapel and it's worked pretty well so far.
Speaker 2:That is fantastic. That is so much fun. So much fun. Let's, let's uh, some of our listeners are in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and if you're not, church, church politics, the, the sin nature that has been all within all of us and different groups kind of uh, you could use it. We're jockeying for positions of influence. Uh, for lack of a better understanding of what takes place, but we just got off of our Synod convention. Um, you were there, and it was my third time straight as a as a delegate, and this I think it was the most healthy of the three that I have been to, or maybe my perspective toward the whole experience was the most healthy that it had been. What were some of your primary takeaways, though, from the the convention, steve? Yeah.
Speaker 3:I would agree it was a healthier than it's been, uh, with room to grow, you know, of course. Uh, so you know my. The thing I always remember is and I've I told a number of people who were there for the first time is conventions. When you look at a convention, you shouldn't be thinking I'm looking at church in action. This is the business side of the church and there's some necessary things that have to happen and, frankly, some unnecessary things that happen, uh, but you know there's things that just have to happen as our, as a large organization, and this is different than the frontline gospel ministry that we all carry out. And so don't, don't lose heart when you look at, you know at the nuts and bolts of it, uh.
Speaker 3:The other thing I always kept reminding people is you know, when you look when it gets, when it got a little heated at times, uh, if you look, it's pretty consistently the same groups of people that get up to the microphones on either end of the spectrum, uh, and it's a small number of people that you know they've got a lot of energy for it. Um, they, they certainly have a vision for where they want to go. I'm not questioning their integrity, uh, but they like to hear themselves talk and, uh, you know, the 80% or so that's in the middle, weren't the people getting up at the microphones, you know, all the time? Or debating? You know they wanted to get on with the work of the church and, and I think that's always, for me, the the best part is the people who are there, the relationships that I mean.
Speaker 3:I was sitting between, you know, two late people I'd never met before and, you know, had great conversations through the week and, you know, with other people around me. Uh, so that's, you know, that's. That's always where I start, you know. Secondly, it really was. There were a fair couple of really contentious issues before this convention and a couple of heartbreaking ones that had to be there, but, um, so much of it really does end up being positive. I mean, you look at welcoming new international partners in and hearing the successes of ministry Um, and then it all wraps up and we go back to our normal colleagues, yeah, and we, we, you know, roll up our sleeves and let's, let's keep proclaiming Jesus.
Speaker 2:How are? How are you feeling about uh 703 or 404? And for those of you who are, this is uh the relationship of the respective board of regions of our five universities with uh the Concordia University system and the board of directors in general at Synod. How are you feeling on seven dash o four?
Speaker 3:You know pretty, pretty good, we uh, it's been a long, long road. We've been working on stuff like this for about 10 years. I was actually on the task forces leading up to the prior two conventions working on this stuff, uh, and so I, you know, I know it kind of inside and out because, uh, of the trauma of losing some concordia is in this trinium, um, there was a strong urge by some to really clamp down and exercise an extreme amount of control. That basically is, you know, locking the gate after the cows are out. You know it's, it's it was putting putting restrictions on the schools that never were pushing against things in order to stop things that already happened.
Speaker 3:Uh, and I'm really thankful that people working on it after lots and lots of work and we spent several months, you know, before the convention, doing this, but after lots of work, we brought that down to you know from things that, frankly, we would not have been able to work well with uh, would have questioned our, our uh accreditation and things like that.
Speaker 3:A lot of complex things, uh, but we ended up with something really workable and there's a few things that I would tweak if I had a chance, and I'll be working with the new board of the Concordia University system, or whatever we're calling them now on. You know they'll. They'll be visiting so every every three years. Now they're going to be visiting us to kind of take a look under the hood and see how things are going, which is fine. We welcome that. We'll be working. I'm chairing a group that's going to be working with them to say, hey, let's focus this in a way that you, you, you learn what you need to learn without becoming a burden that gets in the way of us actually doing the work you want us to do. So I think, I think overall, it ended up in a pretty good place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I agree, and here was my perspective as just a normal pastor and one who cares about the the wire church. If, if the presidents and those that serve on their teams are happy, then I'm happy, and I think they were mostly. Maybe happy is the wrong. They were settled, at least at this point, and the relationship will continue to to evolve. So that's, that's wonderful. Let's while we're on the LCMS kind of kick and what we're going to lean into the conversation on CS Lewis, which I'm super excited about. What makes you most proud to be an LCMS member and leader and also, at the same time, what? Where are opportunities for growth? Or your present day frustrations with who we are as a church body?
Speaker 3:Sure Well above all, what I love about being part of the LCMS is that we have the ability, when we're doing our work right, to say yes, we're scriptures as yes, know where scripture says no, and leave it open everywhere else and not be afraid to say I don't know, or it's a paradox, yeah, and. And whenever we get in trouble, it's always because scripture is hard in some places and we try to figure it out and we start adding to it, or, or, in that open space, we say, well, here's how I choose to answer questions in that open space. So, therefore, everybody must do it, and so we. You know, we will always have to be disciplined about maintaining that. But of all the churches I've ever, you know, worked with or studied or things like that, I think we have the best ability to live with that tension.
Speaker 3:And and that lets the voice of God be. The voice of God, yeah.
Speaker 2:Can you, can you give an example where you think we become unbalanced or where we don't sit in the mystery or the tension as well as as we could and should?
Speaker 3:Sure, well, there's I mean there's lots of examples and they're all going to be different, you know, for different people. An easy one and it's thankfully not quite as hot as it used to be, but it's, it's still lurking is worship, you know, we, we say very clearly in our theology that, you know, the unity of the church is about agreement in the gospel and all of its articles, and that does affect worship. But very often people who like to split into camps will figure out this is, this is what I think is the best way and therefore everybody should be this way. Now, it's not all equal, right, there's there's better things and there's there's lesser things. But you know, I know, you know, I know people on the traditional side that think well, here's, here's the way.
Speaker 3:The lower state sentence position is that our churches are, are to use doctrinally pure worship resources and the way that sometimes misrepresented is. People hear that and they say we have to use sonotically approved worship sources. Well, those are, those could overlap. Well, they do overlap, hopefully, but they're not identical. And what it means is, if I'm, you know, if I'm using things that have gone through a process I should have, I shouldn't turn my brain off, but I've got a pretty good chance that they've been screened doctrinally and they're they're in good shape. And if I choose resources from outside, I need to turn on my brain on all the more. And as pastor or as worship planner, I need to bring my theology to bear to make sure what I'm using is appropriate. And because that's hard work and because people like everyone to agree with them or people say no, you've got to, you've got to agree with me on this.
Speaker 3:And on the other, the other side there's I've known plenty of people over the years who've said, well, if you're not, you know, following contemporary and they define it however they want to then you obviously don't love Jesus and you hate people and you know, and we completely mix it up. We're in reality there's. Let's talk about what we're, what we're covering. Yeah, is the gospel really there? Are the sacraments being presented Right? Are we given glory to God and not to ourselves? I mean there's all kinds of things in there and then within it. Then, if we're serious about that, then it means we're going to live with the tension that that you know the church down the road might make some choices that are different than what my church makes. And if we're united in the gospel. I think the answer to that ought to be isn't that great, because we might be reaching different people, not gee. I have to work a little harder when I visit your church because I don't know all the songs. Well, yeah, you don't, but maybe that will help you too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, really, it's all about relationship, isn't it, steve? See, our relationship with with Christ and then and then our relationship with one another. Is it filled with trust? Are we putting the best construction on everything? Are we especially remaining charitable to those that have been within our family of faith and saying, hey, I know we especially if you're a pastor we, we went through the same, you know our similar sort of formation process and and took the same vows, vows, and that should, that should mean something. So the way I've kind of said it over the because every, every person has gifts to give and gifts to receive. There's only Jesus is the only perfect one, right, and we need all of the gifts of all of the body. And so I have a bent more toward leadership, culture and systems, right, what are? What are the systems of hospitality?
Speaker 2:I love the book of Concord. I read it consistently. It's one of my reads I rotate with, but I'm not I'm not going to like geek out a lot on chemists or Aquinas all the time. I've read them, I love it, but they're not in like my regular rhythm of reading, right? So you can help you can. Or I read a lot of Luther, actually, but if you hear something in me in a sermon or something that seems, oh, that we, maybe we should tweak that.
Speaker 2:I'm all ears right, it's a posture of humility. I'd love to become better at proclaiming the word, balancing law and gospel, etc. And is there a mutuality for some of us who have different gifts to speak into where you, in your context? We just need to learn this posture of humility and learning from one another that that's on our best days when we do that as and I think our theology gives us all the blueprint for that the tension when we live like that man. There's the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod, the confessing and mission oriented church body which we are man, there's. There's little that should stop us, especially in this secular day and age, from really really advancing quick and I'm not afraid of growth, like our churches should grow, because it's a, it's a beautiful thing, our teaching, our theology. So we have gifts to give and gifts to receive. I pray we can have that sort of humility. Anything to add to that, steve?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, and this is what you're sometimes in convention season it brings up again yeah, well, maybe we should just part ways, you know, or let's, let's just splinter off and do it. It's like, you know, we need each other, yeah, we need each other to to keep each other intention, to keep balance. Frankly, we can reach farther when we're working well together. And, you know, let's keep working on this. It's a, you know, god really is at work.
Speaker 3:And you know the other thing, when I, when I did my it's been a long time now, but when I did my doctorate outside the Senate, you with, with Anglican's, you know, there were, you know, my, my elders, who first gave me, you know, the blessing to go on and continue my work.
Speaker 3:They wanted me to go to Concordia Seminary in the worst way, so that the theology would be, would be straight, and it just didn't. It just didn't work out and Durham did, but I think, one of the best things that happens. I came back, you know, with a totally different perspective on the things that argue, people argue about, you know, as I was surrounded by people who, you know, frankly, a lot of them didn't believe the resurrection, didn't believe, you know, in many cases, you know, jesus was not much I mean, it was more religious studies for some of them in other ways. And I came back and you know, heard, heard some really fine sermons there and some really terrible ones. And you know, and I came back and says, yeah, warrants and all. I love our church, you know, and on our worst days we're still looking really good compared to some of the challenges that are out there and God's at work.
Speaker 2:Yeah amen, so so good. So let's talk about CUI, concordia University, irvine. What's the most exciting to you right now? What you see God got up to.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, you know, being the week that it is the most exciting is the. All our undergraduate students are flocking back and that's you. That's always that bit of a it's, it's the two prong. One is, oh shoot, they're coming, are we ready? But mostly it's yes, this is what we're here for, yeah, and so you get. You get that drive, a couple of couple kind of fun things.
Speaker 3:So we spent the last few years strategic planning and doing things, and a bunch of things are falling to place all at once. So you know, one of the signs that were really thankful for what God has done was we were able to find this second campus. And we weren't. We weren't looking for it. We had our nursing programs were off campus and they had run out of space and we were kind of stuck and so we weren't finding options and weren't finding options and all of a sudden, missing fell in our lap and it added about 50% to the teaching space that the university has in one fell swoop.
Speaker 3:And you know this, this week we're, we're moving in, classes are being offered there next week with hundreds of students, and you know we put ministry at the forefront. You know it's one of the things I'm working on is how do we have campus ministry in both places? And so that was one where we hand that. Just I've never seen in transaction go so smoothly. It was like God saying here's something on a plate for you, why don't you rejoice and see what you do with it? So that's so. That's really good. We are seeing your COVID was a challenge for all universities and we came through it better than a lot of them.
Speaker 3:But we are seeing kind of the post COVID, you know, shake out, where you know there was an initial burst of students and a little bit of a decline. But the thing that actually has me very pleased, as we saw an uptick in church work students this year In the couple years you know, during COVID and right afterwards, numbers at every Christian school I talked to went down in ministry students and you can see why you know it's a. What am I going into? How is this, you know? Am I going to be a teacher when schools aren't meeting? Am I going to be a pastor when you know I see how stressed they are trying to figure all this stuff out? Well, they've seen the recovery and they're coming back and some really good, you know followers of Jesus, who I think are going to be a blessing, and that's just a joy to see that coming.
Speaker 2:Wow, that is very exciting. At the United Leadership Collective, man, we care about the next generation of leaders being raised up for ministry big, big time. So that makes my heart super happy. What are some of the preconceived notions maybe negative notions that some folks may have about the 18 to 22, 25 year old right now, today? Like they're so far gone, you know, and maybe even the character of Christ may not, and they're so tied into technology and you know, I think you can kind of go down. A number of our members in our churches can kind of go. Man, are we losing a generation? Help dismiss what I think is a lie there, steve.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so students aren't even here yet. And yesterday morning five Concordia students walked into my church together, you know, and worship off campus and they, they thought about you know they'll be. They'll be more next week, I think. A couple things I'd say. One is very often, when you talk about today's generation, we're looking at the wrong generations. So, you know, even at convention we saw this a little bit. Let's come into a book to help us understand millennials. Well, millennials are in their 40s. Some of them, you know this is, this, is a whole different.
Speaker 3:You know whole different thing and we often have the wrong target involved. So you know, this is, this is a generation that's known challenge and they went through high school during, during COVID. They're, you know, they're hungry. So you know, I will tell you. I, you know, last year, when we were completely live and everything, we saw our chapel attendance increase, where, where a lot of us were afraid, gee, everyone learned to go online. And they were, they were begging to come in, you know, and then to do things and to get involved. They do care about this world. They do want to make a difference.
Speaker 3:They're sometimes a little jaded, you know, they're there and, frankly, that we shouldn't be putting that on them. What are the models they've been seeing, what are the, what are the attitudes? You know they they've been absorbing, you know from people older than them and some of that cynicism rubs off. But you know, every time, every time, I get a little concern. You know what's the future like and where our leaders come from. I just go hang out with the college kids for a while and then I feel really good afterwards because there's, you know, yeah, there's, there's challenges, but they've faced challenges that others, others don't. I'm just in.
Speaker 3:In objective terms, you know every generation likes to think the one below them is less moral than they are. You know, in outward things and obviously that's not a measure of Christianity, but in outward signs we might want to recalibrate that. You know it's a different set of values going on. Now there's certainly concerning things as well I mean they're dealing with pressures in. You know, lgbtq plus, and and, and things that previous generations, frankly, could ignore, in many cases to our peril. You know it's front and center for them, and so there's there's work to do, but God's in this generation.
Speaker 2:Amen, amen. So what are? Help us learn even more, what are their values? You mentioned values, deep sense of community.
Speaker 3:What else that folks yeah so it's one of the things that's really hard for older generations to really get a grip on is these are? These are some of those digital natives. Right, they've grown up their entire lives with, with technology. You know when, when I was growing up in, computers were new, personal computers were new, when I was in high school and college, you know this is the later generations. This was normal to them. This generation is always, you know, they've always known cell phones in their pockets and that kind of connectivity. And you know mom and dad are, you know, 30 seconds away, and so they do. I mean part of their part of their life is is digital more than more than any other generation.
Speaker 3:And that might concern us, and I certainly embodied relationships. There's no substitute for that. And yet they weren't. They maintain connections with people that they wouldn't otherwise, you know, and you know they they might have with some people who aren't native to this thing.
Speaker 3:Our relationships are more shallow. Well, they can get some pretty decent things going. It's not, it's not alone. They need the challenge to be gathered together, right, you know, know the body, work together, spend time together, but they've come up with some really good things with that. They do care, you know, as a generation, they do care about the needs of other people. You know and you know this is this is why you, when people look and say why, why do some of the younger people seem to embrace, you know, the sexuality movements? A lot of it is they're seeing people that they think are being mistreated or cut off or hated and they want to, they want to support them. You know, it's not so much about the choices they're making as about people that are cut off, and that's something we all ought to learn from. You know that if we're, if we're letting our moral or religious judgments isolate people, that's beyond our call. You know that's not, that's not something we were told to do. You know, show hospitality, show love. It's amazing what a difference that makes.
Speaker 2:It's, that's that's so good. I mean, it's not what Jesus did, steve, right, right, jesus went to the other side of the sea. He hangs with the Daboniak, he hangs with a woman, you know kind of adultery and he brings harder words, obviously to the Pharisees and those that want to isolate themselves from the center, and I mean that's one of the main reasons he was. This is not the Messiah we were looking for, right.
Speaker 3:Right right.
Speaker 2:He looks radically different and can our churches model and mirror that? And maybe what I hear you saying is we should take a cue from Generation Z, and that really is. That really is. I don't like really the saying love the center, hate the sin per se, but like a love and a care to know the story To. I don't really like the word empathize either, because sometimes it leads us to maybe over owned and maybe we lose boundaries. But I care for how other people are feeling, how other people are being treated, and I want to advocate for them, even if I disagree with their lifestyle choices, if they're being treated poorly as an outsider man. Jesus, welcome me when I was, when I was a sinner, that is. That is the tension filled way that we are called to walk as individuals and as the church. Anything more to add there, steve?
Speaker 3:to the way as we interact with people. Don't don't be angry. Yes, don't be angry with them. It's because they get enough of that. They get enough of that. What they, what they don't experience, is someone who said you know you can disagree with them. You know I there's lots of people disagree with on all kinds of insolvent in the church. But you can disagree with them and still love them. You can still be a decent person, you can still be kind to them, you can still show hospitality and care. And it's amazing, when you do that, how often people say you weren't what I thought, yeah, and then that opens up for more.
Speaker 2:People, people don't change through shame Right.
Speaker 2:So, this is the tension. This is the tension Think of just like parenting kids. Right, you can accept someone, you know, I would say even love someone and not agree with them, and and I think that acceptance and kind of wrestling and that starts with each one of us individually. Does it, steve? Like there's, I accept how God made me and yet I don't agree with all the things I think and say. You know, and self awareness is toward that end.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, I think our culture we want to bifurcate, we want to narrow, we want to divide, we want to take what is complex and make it simple. This is what the human brain yearns to do, and yet, following Jesus, going down a generation or two, it's going to be messy. And do you embrace it or do you say no, no, no, let's just keep arms, like I'm going to do my thing and kind of have my general preconceived notions about that person or that people group, those who have that ideology. And in the meantime, the winsome witness of Jesus is damaged, maybe even greatly, and that makes me sad. Anything more to say there, steve?
Speaker 3:Yeah no, yeah, that's, that's it. And God does his work, you know it's. You know we can, we can. You know we don't ever have to condone sinful. We never should condone sinfulness. But God does his work and I've certainly seen lives turn around and change and people end up in surprising places and it just it takes walking with people, you know, showing the same kind of patients. God shows for us.
Speaker 2:Amen. I think this is a good time maybe for me to ask the question regarding the student body population at our Concordia's and at CUI. There are some and I've had good conversation, collegial conversation with some, who say in Christian Parise is one of them. I'm going to be chatting with Christian Parise pastor in Wyoming again. He's a brother, got to hang out with him at convention, just some and passing, and a good man.
Speaker 2:But I think we disagree on this, that the Concordia's have lost their mission when they welcome the outsider, the non-LCMS Lutheran student. I think you're trying to do both right. I mean I hear from all of our Concordia's we want our Concordia's to be places where our LCMS students come in, church workers et cetera, and at the same time we're trying to run a university here that serves as many people as want to come in who may not come in with our Lutheran values that are coming in needing to be formed. I see it as a wonderful, wonderful mission opportunity. What would you say to someone who says that you've lost the mission? Drift has taken place at CUI and other Concordia's for X, y and Z because of kind of arbitrary what I think are arbitrary percentages of Lutheran students or not.
Speaker 3:What are your thoughts there, steve? So I think, first of all, people who say that in my experience very often don't know what's actually happening at the Concordia's, or they know what's happening at one and they project. So most of what I hear about what we do and what we are in the broader church is not based on factual statistics or information. It's just this is what we know, and so a lot of my job. I spend time correcting misunderstandings of people and they find out and they say, oh, that's different. At the heart of it there's a serious conversation that's not unique to us. This is all. Christian universities wrestle with us, in one way or the other, of two models that outside our circles, are called either the covenant model or the mission model. Are you just for your people or are you seeing yourself as a mission field? Now, of course, there's a third way, which is we don't care and we're going to do whatever we want, and those are the schools that drift away fastest. I'll tell you for a fact there's no Concordia that views what we do as just education, no mission involved. That's not where any of us are. So for me there's a tension of yes, we were founded to form Lutheran students and church workers as a significant part of what we're doing. Several of our Concordias, that was their mandate. That's what they were to do almost exclusively at the beginning. That wasn't true from our university. We were founded as a liberal arts school that also does church work. That was in the DNA from the very start and very explicit when the Senate founded us. But this is. We're here for both purposes. And so, first of all, one of the misunderstandings we often hear is if we have other programs, that means that there's less space for our Lutheran students or our church work students. And I just always like to assure people in the church. My president said the other week he says if we get a thousand new students who want to prepare for church work in the LCM house, we're going to accept that. If they're qualified, obviously right. We're going to accept a thousand students. We're not going to wait and hold back the spots for something else. We are going to respond. And so my first challenge to churches is are you sending us those students? Same way with Lutheran students who are not going into church work? They're an important part of our university, they're the salt in our community. They are a really part of our important witness, both as we serve them and as they serve others. And, frankly, as one who ran the church work programs for years, many of our LCMS kids. You want to raise the number of church work students. Send an LCMS kid to the Concordia's because there's a decent chance that through that they're going to test it out and try it on and become a church worker and not all of them, but some of them will. So please send them. But it's not just that. We are a mission, and I certainly.
Speaker 3:Concordia Irvine Christ originally Christ College was founded looking east, looking to Asia and to India and to the to the end church, knowing that something would happen. So here's the reality. Most of our undergrad students are Christian. Not all of them are very well connected. Not all of our Lutheran students are very well connected. Truth be told, many of them are.
Speaker 3:But they're coming along, they're going to come here and what we say is if a student's willing to engage with our mission, they're welcome here, and if they're coming to fly the flag and try to change us into something else, they're going to be frustrated. It's not a good fit for them, it's. You know, we would, we would, we would welcome them, but they need to want to be here. If they want to be here, whatever they're coming from, we know something's going to happen while they're here. So, as an undergraduate student, they're going to take theology classes. They're going to cover core Christian doctrine. They're going to hear it really well. They're going to do Old Testament and New Testament. They're going to hear the gospel. If they're a graduate student, they are going to hear the gospel. We have. We have modules in every single program where they encounter Jesus. Plus, they're going to be in a community that holds us out very clearly. And you know, yes, we could have a tiny college that did just. It was a monastery for Lutherans, yeah, and in many ways our job would be significantly easier.
Speaker 3:But I've baptized people, you know I've. I've baptized. You know I've baptized a Muslim student. You know, a couple years, a couple years back that's an ongoing thing for us I've watched people who came in to say I thought I knew what Christianity was. Thank you for showing me the gospel. You know, I've seen this over and over and over again and I've seen people like this come in and join our churches, you know, and become involved and become leaders.
Speaker 3:This is a really important mission and we've taken that very seriously. At Irvine, part of the way we've done that was my position was creating, you know, someone whose whole job was keeping us on identity. What I'm not sure the church really understands is that that model is being applied at all the other Concordias now. They've all got someone. You know it's kind of focusing in on mission identity. They've all every one of them has reached out to me to say how can we, you know, how can we do this better together? We share everything we have, because you know this, the Concordias of the LCMS. We want to be on mission, we want to be faithful, we want to be presented in the gospel. We're a strong mission field. In fact I think some would say we're the strongest mission field that's in North America and we're bringing in all kinds of people.
Speaker 2:I love it, steve. I mean, our universities are not the local church, right? Right, they are institutions of higher learning and at the same time, though the DNA, or the guts of the tension that we at the local church, who are we for? Right, right, does the church have a mission, or the mission to have a church? Right, and it's, we're here to carry out the mission. And how do we carry it out? It's through the means of Christ, through word, through the sacraments, and.
Speaker 2:But we, on Sundays, and then throughout the week, man, we're welcoming in our schools, our Ivek to aid and, mike, I'm looking out in our courtyard right now, the First Arizona Lutheran Micro High School with six students who are starting. We're praying that grows, but we went in. Four of those six actually are non-lutheran students and we welcome them. They're going to hear good theology. But do we exist in our DNA as a part of our story, as a covenant congregation and covenant schools? That's not been a part of the DNA of the Lutheran Church, missouri Sanit, our universities and I'll lovingly challenge anyone who says who says differently we've always had this kind of tension filled. Yes, we want to disciple the found, but we want to disciple the found to go after those who don't know Jesus. It's just in our DNA on our best days, steve. Anything more to add to that Sure?
Speaker 3:And I would say, even at the institutions we have the most focused on exclusively LCMS our seminaries, and even there they have graduate students who are non-LCMS. They bring in speakers who are not. They invite all kinds of people to their symposia and conferences and things, and they should, because they have something wonderful to share. Yes, I mean this message that we have, this is why we're confident. This message that we have is truth and frankly, I don't want that Baptist student to go to the Baptist school 40 miles away. I would rather they come here. They might not join the LCMS, but I know the Baptists who believe in infant baptism now and who believe in real presence and they're on a path that is kind of a strange one, but they're influencing and they're you know God is at work.
Speaker 2:And I know a lot of people who become.
Speaker 3:LCMS.
Speaker 2:Amen, Amen. I love the. I'm going to have Flam, who is the Christian, now Lutheran rapper. I mean his story, his story is fantastic. Right, he heard he'd been in kind of the charismatic and even, I think, Calvinist, and then he's like what who are these? Crazy Lutherans. And then he goes and gets his MA at Concordia Seminole in St Louis.
Speaker 3:And he did so.
Speaker 2:It's so good. You know, are we open? This is a posture that we at the ULC and in our congregation just open handed. The only thing we hold we don't hold it, he holds us is the gospel of Jesus Christ by grace, through faith. Our posture to give our doctrine is just open handed to the world. Man that, I pray, is infusing the cult and we're talking a lot here around culture. Right, that's a lot of what you do. That should be the culture of our institutions and our congregations. All right. Last question this has been super fun, steve. You're an expert in the life and teachings of CS Lewis. I would say this man, when he came to faith, he certainly wrote and lived with an open minded, open handed posture toward bringing the gospel to people. What most amazes you about Lewis and what's most applicable about CS Lewis's writings in 2023? Sure.
Speaker 3:So I really went after Lewis because of his communication that I was hearing person after person talk about how influential Lewis was in their faith and, frankly, quoting Lewis on all kinds of stuff, and at the time there hadn't been a lot. There had been studies of some things but there hadn't been a thorough study of kind of the whole package, what he says about things that are at the core, and so I wanted to go a little deeper. But both what does he say and why is he effective? And so I think because of what works, there's really a couple different things that I think make Lewis who he is, and you really need both of them to get the whole package. One is that he was very logical and focused and could distill an argument down to its very core and cut through a lot of the distractions.
Speaker 3:And so his most famous argument in Mirch Christianity and miracles and problem of pain they're all over the place is this question of is Jesus just a good teacher? And he pulls that back and says well, he uses all his philosophical skills to say you know what? That doesn't make sense and here's why, if you like Jesus and you like his teaching, then you have to listen to what he says and what he says about himself and you come down to it and there's really only those two, three options. In the end he's who he says he is, or he's lying about it, in which case we shouldn't listen to him, or he's crazy, or the next generation made it up and he kind of systematically dismantles those and said now he doesn't prove any of the faith by that. But he says look by basis of the logic and just the very nature of what we know suggests we better take Jesus claims seriously. And that's not the end of the argument, right, that's just hey, listen, this is somebody you need to listen to because he makes a claim that's really extraordinary and then go look at the evidence and so I think that's kind of that focus. And he does it in other ways, but that focus is really good. The other reason frankly, I don't think we would remember him for this argument without his illustrations Because, frankly, that argument wasn't original.
Speaker 3:He just said it in really clear form and kept saying it. But his illustrations and the big form in stories In America we really have CS Lewis because of the screw-take letters and the Chronicles of Narnia, and that opened up the door for two different audiences to listen to more, but it's all over the place. I mean, anytime he writes, he's telling stories. He very frequently, to make a point, will illustrate something, even three times, you know, say it's like this, or it's like this, or it's like this, and it's just so natural.
Speaker 3:People are following along and they're saying, oh, I didn't get that one. And they keep reading and the next one hits them. And that clarity of thought and expression where you might not want to hear the story of the crucifixion of Jesus if you've been beat over the head with it, but you might actually get the impact of that through a fictional story that then lets someone say and now think about that. Which is exactly how Lewis was converted. He liked stories and his friends say, hey, you like all those other stories, but here's the one time it's real, this time it really happened. How come you're not listening to that one? And eventually he did, because God was working.
Speaker 2:Amen. The Holy Spirit was at work in his life, I mean. So to go back to your first point, lyre, lunatic lore is kind of that apologetic framework that Lee Struble and others kind of wrestled with. And then the undergirding of storytelling. I think about preaching. You get the privilege of declaring long gospel to God's people, and young and old, at the university as well as in the parish. But that good storytelling in our homo-letics, in our sermons, and then different analogies coming from different angles, telling one point. I'm a big one pointer. I mean, I may have other points, but I want people to take away one kind of general thought. That is the preacher's task. In many respects this may not work, but does this work? Does this work?
Speaker 2:And saying it in an engaging enough way, a story filled way, that people and this is all the power of the Holy Spirit right. They attach themselves, the spirit attaches them to that respective idea, and the main idea is obviously Jesus' Lord. Anything more to say about how CS Lewis kind of shaped, then your preaching yeah.
Speaker 3:By reading that you kind of get a voice right and he opens it up to other stories and other things like that. And what I've learned is I can put a content sermon together quickly, yeah, but to write a sermon that's going to really connect take some time to marinate, to ponder it, to think about things I said I need to read, I need to pay some attention to the culture around me. I need to listen to the ways my people are talking. I need to listen to people of different generations talking, to try to find those hooks and those natural things. So what I'm listening for this week is I don't know if this, if your podcast time delays, so I might mess it up but what I'm looking for this week for Sunday is Jesus, you're welcoming outcasts and who are the outcasts that we haven't welcomed?
Speaker 3:And then to come back around. I'm hoping nobody in my congregation listens to this before Sunday because I'm giving away my core outline now. But we're coming around and we're thinking when we're doing our best and thinking, how do I welcome outcasts but we still haven't made it, till I realize, oh wait, that's me.
Speaker 2:Wow, this has been. I figured that one out.
Speaker 3:yet I got the idea, but now I gotta still put some bones on it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, isn't it good. A story doesn't need to be a story reads us. I don't read it, I find myself in it and that's why the Bible is the greatest book of all time, because I relate to all different characters. Right, it reads me and I think good preaching. I don't know if I wanna ask this question now. Okay, I will.
Speaker 2:We started with a sinic convention. One thing that's interesting to me I'm curious about this is not condemnation is the culture that we have, where pastors feel like they have to read almost all of the sermon, even sometimes telling a story and with me I've been blessed to get to mentor so many vickers over the years is like you know the story, it's in you and if you know how you're getting into it and out of it, there's just kind of the culture of maybe fear. I don't wanna say the wrong thing or say the wrong thing in the wrong way, so I feel like I have to be attached to. But we write manuscripts here but then we memorize, not word for word, but we memorize the main hook in the ins and outs, and obviously the gospel flourish. This needs to be all pointing to Jesus, but I don't know if you wanna observe, I've just observed that sociologically I think there's a especially a sinic convention, this like culture of I don't wanna say the wrong thing Anything to add to that Steve.
Speaker 3:There's also having done on the platform, it's in the convention speaking. There's also a really strict time limit. I know part of it is I can't, I don't dare go the extra five minutes long because then that causes all kinds of problems. But I do think there's a lot of our pastors that that last step to make it natural and to I can be free of my manuscript because I've spent time with my manuscript and time I didn't write this the day before.
Speaker 3:I've been thinking about this all week long. I've been crafting it, I've been polishing it. I think about it as I'm driving. I use it if I make a shut-in call. There's all kinds of things that go into it so that it's the same content, but it's. I mean it's just that emotional connection of catching someone in the eye and seeing it. I mean, in fact, the feedback you get from it seeing is like all right, it's something's not resonating. It's not like I'm gonna drop the content, but something's happening here. I can, just by looking at someone, I can re-engage them. And you miss that when we're reading.
Speaker 2:And then Steve. This has been so much fun. How can people connect with you if they desire, brother?
Speaker 3:You can reach me at Concordia. So is Steve Mueller at Stevemueller at CUIedu.
Speaker 2:Your gift to the body of Christ is an honor to call you a friend and partner in the gospel here in the Pacific Southwest District. Thank you for leading so faithfully for so many years at CUI, and the best is yet to come for Concordia University and for you, Dr Mueller, you're a gift. This is the American Reformation Podcast. Sharing it's caring. Please like, subscribe, comment wherever it is that you take this in, and we promise to have engaging conversations that draw you closer to Jesus and closer to the mission of Jesus. In this wonderful day and age in which we live, 2023 and beyond. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day with the help of the Lord. We'll see you next week. Thanks so much, Steve. Take care. Good be with you, Peace.